I pollinated Lutescens with a variety of pollens a few years ago, Karl. Most resulted in hips with one or two seeds (the norm for Lutescens self pollinations in my experience) but none germinated. I have planted a number of self set seed from it with three germinating in four months (two years of plantings). One was so addicted to mildew, it succumbed to it. I don’t spray, anything. Two remain. The eldest is now flowering in its fifth year (the other is four years old). The plant shows no affinity to anything other than Banksiae, but its flowers differ from Lutescens in that they are significantly thinner and longer in the bud, with five longer, narrower petals and fewer stamen than its seed parent. The color is the same yellow. Because it’s a seedling, therefore presumably free of RMV, it’s the one I have been rooting to use for root stocks. I have no confirmation of the cleanliness of the Lutescens so I haven’t used it for root stocks. Warren reported the Chinese use Banksiae for standard stocks, so why not try it for bushes, too?
I pimp Lutescens pollen on everything that flowers, but few of the resulting seedlings demonstrate any obvious hybridity, other than perhaps strong mildew affinity. But, I keep trying. Purezza pollen is also spread far and wide. We’ll see when last year’s seedlings all flower if anything appears to have resulted. What would you suggest Lutescens be put on to try for a Banksiae poly?
I don’t dispute the report. However, I have found evidence that some of the Cherokee roses were being raised from seed. John Hartwell Cocke (American Farmer, Aug. 10, 1821) wrote, “All the seeds have been committed to the earth.—The prospect you have given me of getting into a stock of the Cherokee Rose, is doing me a great favour.” These were planted at his home in Bremo, VA. And in 1851 he was encouraging others to use the Cherokee Rose for a living hedge instead of the Osage Orange. http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/CockeCherokee/CockeCherokee1821.html
On page 120 of American Farmer (July 6, 1821), Nicholas Herbemont of Columbia, SC, offered to send hips of R. laevigata to the editor. Perhaps Cocke received some of these.
Maybe some clones growing around the Bremo, VA area would show a slightly different genotype than those in Georgia, Alabama, etc.
Karl, I’m sure you are familiar with Robert Rippetoe’s work using “The Monster” from which he got Lila Banks, etc. It was, I believe, the white morph, which he crossed with Old Blush.
I had always wanted to work with R.b.lutescens, the fertile yellow morph, and after some effort, managed to acquire it in New Orleans prior to Katrina. I never had the opportunity to work with it, alas, but I believe Kim has.
I think Kim will tell you that banksia seedlings start out highly susceptible to mildew, but I don’t know of his long term results, admittedly. Like you, my main thinking was of a yellow without foetida genes. Reading of Purezza years ago is what initially inspired me, though apparently it required some real bull-headedness on Mansuino’s part to make it finally happen. Banksias, while not immune to mildew where pressures for such are very high, are extremely healthy here in the south.
It sounds like working with laevigata will require some sort of bridge, however, and I suppose banksia or corymbosa might be the best candidates?
Ah, but the way Mansuino wrote about his work, he made it seem like the easiest thing in the world. Sure, pollinate ‘Tom Thumb’ by a Centifolia x HT cross. No big deal.
In cases like this I have to wonder how much effect soil and climate have on various successes.
“In cases like this I have to wonder how much effect soil and climate have on various successes.”
Probably more than you’d expect. There have been several roses listed as having been used for breeding that I couldn’t imagine how that was possible. In inland, valley heat, Iceberg won’t set hips, but move toward the cooler, damper coast and it sets hips like a fruit tree. Mermaid won’t set them in that heat, but it does set hips (usually empty, but hips, non the less) in coastal weather. Rosarium Uetersen in valley heat, has no stamen or anthers, often not even a stigma, just petals. At the cooler coast, it’s semi double, filled with stamen and anthers and it sets hips in the cool. I wasn’t able to actually push forward with Minutifolia until benefiting from the cooler, damper coastal climate. The hot, arid inland valley climate, even the Encino climate with elements of both valley heat and coastal cool, seemed to inhibit either the pollen activity or the ability of the seed parents to accept it. Why? I dunno, but I do believe climate does play a strong role on various successes. Since most of my pollinating and all seed growing have been done in the same brand and type of potting soil, that variable has pretty much been a constant.
More information is always helpful. Rosa laevigata wouldn’t bloom for Lord Penzance until an unusually hot English summer came along.
Soil also can be important. I can’t get ‘Gloire de Dijon’ to set hips. It grew fairly well for a while, but just doesn’t seem happy in my clay soil. Meanwhile, a few feet away '‘Plaisanterie’ is taking over the corner of the house, and is blooming furiously at the moment.
And before I forget:
American Rose Annual pp. 41-43 (1917)
On the 1916 Rose Firing-Line
By W. VAN FLEET
“The typical Cherokee yielded a satisfactory crop, considering the adverse conditions. No fruits matured in the pink varieties, though the pollen of Anemone appeared effectual on other species.”
Well, I feel silly. I didn’t realize there was a page 2 when I posted my reply to something I saw on page 1. (Sorry Kim for my speculative post on what you already verified.)
Kim, as for a pairing, have you tried with any of the yellow tea noisettes? (e.g. any of the Reve d’Or lineage, or Crepuscule). I may be completely off the mark, but I seem to recall that china blood was recommended in crossing with banks (maybe I made that up based on Mansuino’s success) and as you say “poly”, I’m wondering if that class might have any potential viability…
Re soil, I just noticed that a rose I moved across town that I had given up on as sterile now has heps in this garden, having much better, richer soil. Now I’m all the more depressed about the plants I was unable to propagate, and had to leave behind in the ground, per realtor and contract.
No, Philip, I haven’t tried the yellow Tea Noisettes as I don’t have any. I did try putting Lutescens on some of the Teas such as Cl Lady Hillingdon and Mme Antoine Mari. No results to report, yet. Avery Tunningley created “The Monster” from Banksiae Banksiae X Old Blush. I have Louis Philippe, Elisabeth’s China, Lane Plot (very similar to Elisabeth’s), as well as a number of other “Teas”. 'The Monster' Rose
I have put laevigata onto Marie Van Houtte and got plenty of seed. I got one to germinate but it didn’t make it to cotyledon stage. I did, however, get a lot of OP Laevigata sed to germinate and make it a fair way through. They were discarded in the end due to mildew issues. They look to me to be a hybrid. These were op seeds sent to me by a contact in Western Australia. This contact has an extablished rose collection with many options for rose pollination, despite laevigata opening well before anything else (which is also a possible reason for the lack of hybrids). Laevigata is a failure to thrive for me here in Tasmania. there was a lot of ‘confusion’ evident in the newly germinated seedlings with some coming up with tricotyledons and some coming up looking more like palm trees than rose seedlings. I have posted these photos on here way back in 2012, too.
Gardening 10: 198-199 (Mar 15, 1902)
Hybrid Stocks for Rose Propagation
Walter Van Fleet
“… Perle des Jardins, budded on an established plant of the Cherokee rose, Rosa laevigata, is giving splendid blooms of almost exhibition quality, in a cold, damp house where five years’ effort with potted Perles on own roots and Manetti only resulted in a chance “bullhead” once or twice a year. Further trials will be made with teas and hybrid teas on this stock.”
I have been trying to think of some reason that so many Laevigata hybrids don’t make it to maturity. I had a hunch, which is how I came across the above note. Laevigata, Banksiae and x Fortuniana are all terrific stocks, at least in mild climates.
Has anyone had occasion to bud or graft any of these onto other stocks?
I have no persuasive reason to think that a failing Laevigata hybrid would be any stronger on Laevigata, Banksiae or x Fortuniana, but I have to think that something specific is going wrong. Maybe it could be fixed well enough to get to a second generation.
The Garden: An Illustrated Weekly Journal of Gardening 55: 375 (May 27, 1899)
Philomel Rosa sinica Anemone is first-rate novelty, said to be a hybrid of Rosa laevigata. One thing can be said in its favour, and that is it flowers freely on young plants. One cannot claim this much for Rosa laevigata. The flowers of Rosa sinica Anemone are single, and almost as large as those of macrantha. In colour they remind one of the Hybrid Tea La Fraicheur.
This is a reminder that one part of domestication, of flowering shrubs as well as of fruit trees, is precocity. That is to say, a shortening of the juvenile phase. As Van Mons (1835) noted, wild pears growing in the forest might be 10 to 12 years old before they begin to flower and fruit. But with careful selection (and other techniques) Van Mons had pear trees that began bearing in just 4 years, and a few at only 3 years.
In the case of ‘Anemone’, we may assume that the precocity came from the other (Tea?) parent. It may be that back-crossing ‘Anemone’ to R. laevigata might yield a new form of the species that bloomed more freely at a young age. If some pink pigment is carried along, so much the better.
Simon, those are pretty interesting, though folks are certainly discouraging me from attempting to hybridize with this one.
I’ve been traveling, and saw a good number of Cherokee brambles in bloom along the roads of East Texas this week. Wasn’t really able to stop along highways to attempt to find last years hips on the plants, but I collected a few last month which I will try to germinate.
I wonder if a fortuniana-type made with R.b. lutescens might have yellow blooms…
I think it would require a stronger yellow to tint them yellow than Lutescens, Philip. Basye’s Amphidiploid 86-3 required Golden Horizon to make yellow this “intense”.
And Jim’s L56-1, that brilliant, saturated red,
only yielded this much color with it.
Philip, if I have learned anything from hybridising roses over the last 15ish years is that you listen to what other people say, think about it, consider it, and then try it anyway with that advice in mind because many of the obstacles can be environmental and once exposed to a different set of abiotic and biotic factors it might just surprise you. In the end, if you get nothing, nothing is lost. If they are bad, you can always discard them. If they are awesome, they might be a break-through.
