Hey Simon.
I haven’t seen this document…sounds like interesting reading…
btw, is the blue rose available in Oz. yet?
George
The ‘blue’ rose was created by Florigene, an Australian based company in cooperation with another Japanese based company (whose name escapes me… Sun-something I think shrugs…). It’s been approved for release but I am not sure whether it has been or not. It will only be available as a cut flower, however. The link is on here not long ago. It worries me that they have approved it based on some of the assumptions they’ve made, especially regarding the possible pathways for it to be passed on especially since they incorporated agrobacterium genes to create antibiotic resistance in them (as a marker to indicate the uptake of the transgenes). It has been shown in studies on other plant species that genetic information can and does jump between tissue layers and can become inheritable without too much trouble… anyway… the transgenes are behaving like a non-inheritbale sport at the moment… time will tell whether it remains this way.
Yep, I read the recent RHA discussion about this blue rose a few weeks ago.
It seems really weird that so much investment would go into incorporation of a biological identifier in this blue rose, only to have it unlikely to show up in hybrids. Maybe the reason it was “tagged” was to deter clonal propagation?
Very over the top!!
The marker was to show that the transgenes had been taken up. If you want to email me George I’ll go through all the stuff in more detail rather than hijaking this thread 
ok…
I have directed a question at Fara on your previous thread “Transgenic roses…and disclosure”, because I wouldn’t mind clarification on her assertion in that thread that…“the plant also has a genetic marker so that if it is used as a parent, Suntory will be able to search for the marker”.
I understand this to mean that it is technically possible to “mark” a rose to prevent theft. This issue is key to this discussion.
These days any rose is “markable” to identify it. Just as we can use DNA to “prove” the presence of a person at the site of a crime, we can use some random tags and PCR amplification to find whether a particular lot of DNA taken from a Cv has certain tags present. By comparing our unknown suspect to authentic Cv we can verify that they match. With enough markers we can match it to likely parents, or grandparents. That would take around 40 markers, 10 for each (grand)parent. It is always a probability argument, with statistical odds better than some set value. Siblings may be similar enough that you have to add more markers to sort them out. This is done routinely for valuable crops during the breeding and selection process. It is called marker-assisted selection in that instance.
What we need is a general map of the rose genome. Probably Florigene/Suntory and a few research labs have something usable. There are various papers suggesting progress along those lines.
As for why there was a agrobacterial piece left in the plant after gene transfer, that’s unavoidable with use of agro in transfer. There might well be some antibiotic resistance gene left there also, but there are ways around it these days, and for regulatory reasons it is preferred to not have those floating in the environment.
It’s interesting that they claim a chimera. The patent thicket on genetic technology is such that you might well violate several patents if you use the blue rose in any way at all. Only a patent lawyer could tell you for sure if it is the genes, markers or processes that are patented. There is something called reach-through, and Florigene had to buy or licence a lot of technologies to make the thing in the first place. This varies from one country to another and it may be no accident that this work was not done in the U.S. It could have been easily enough. If I’m not dreaming now, I recall having written about this in a RHA newsletter maybe a year ago.
it may be no accident that this work was not done in the U.S.
Back in 1983 I attended a biotech conference at Cornell where I spoke with a member of Robb Fraley’s team from Monsanto - I think it was Rogers iirc - about engineering delphinidin into roses using their new Agrobacter cloning vectors. He told me then that the idea had been considered as a way to demonstrate the power of the technology but that it was rejected because it was simply not lucrative enough.
Incidentally, Suntori’s interest in pigment engineering is not limited to roses and I doubt if roses are actually at the top of their agenda. The potential market for blue chrysanthemums in Asia alone far exceeds that for blue roses world-wide.
It could have been easily enough.
It could have been attempted easily enough but, as it turns out, success proven to be elusive even 25 years on.
Larry, thank you so much for adding light to the subject of DNA markers as a means of plant / rose identification.
Your cautions are also WELL NOTED - “The patent thicket on genetic technology is such that you might well violate several patents if you use the blue rose in any way at all”.
Is there such a thing as a world-wide patent for roses?
George, I am not aware of any world-wide patent, which is the problem. You can protect breeder’s rights in one jurisdiction but after your rose is exported to another, anyone can propagate and sell it unless you patented it there too.
Thanks Cass, this situation seems very impractical and discouraging indeed.
It’s not so bad George… we can not easily export our roses to other countries anyway so there is little chance of even requiring an international patent. We might be able to chip it to N.Z. or maybe Japan (???) but the U.S. has placed a block on Australian roses due to a virus that has been detected here (can’t remember which on… rose wilt maybe… not sure).
Hmmm… point well made Simon.
In Australia new PBR approvals are published in an industry journal and from there nurseries/growers can contact the holder of the PBR and make an offer to become the licensed grower/distributor of the variety. The avenues mentioned above also exist. I found out about the PBR publishing avenue when searching for PBR information and came across a article describing the application process undergone by Ms Lilia Weatherly (founder of ‘Pink Iceberg’ here in Tasmania) here: http://www.ipaustralia.gov.au/pbr/pink_iceberg.shtml>
I found the journal here: http://www.ipaustralia.gov.au/pbr/journal_download.shtml> - Plant Varieties Journal (there is a lot of helpful information in this journal for plant growers/hybridisers in Australia).
Geaorge, I also found this that you might be interested in: http://www.ipaustralia.gov.au/pdfs/plantbreed/Protecting%20your%20plant%20variety%20overseas.pdf>
Oops… sorry about the typo on your name George blushing
I just did a very quick read of your links, thanks Simon.
It appears that the total cost of acquiring and maintaining a rose PBR over it’s 20 year lifespan, in Australia, approaches AUD $10,000.
Of course there are other associated incidentals like legal fees to be considered in this calculation.
Does a rose patent in the U.S require payment of an annual feee to prevent its expiry?
There are maintenance fees, but not annually. Here’s a link to recent fees - - although there might have been some slight reductions because of consumer price indexing. Go to page 2.
Link: www.uspto.gov/web/offices/com/sol/notices/73fr47534.pdf
I also thought that once a patent had expired they didn’t generally extend it.
Thanks again Cass for the timely information !