Wow, Karl. Thanks so much for that post!
Though I certainly donât recommend teenagers having children for the sake of variability LOL
Since the bulk of my culling (70-80%) is on the first bloom, I let everything bloom. After blooming, I try to pinch off most of the blooms of the best seedlings to promote continued good growth. After the 2nd or 3rd bloom cycle, I will just remove the petals of most of the seedlings, to keep the seedling benches clean and to see which ones will set hips. At this stage, I am looking for 2 things: potential new seed parents and ability to continue blooming without having to âdeadheadâ. Some of the ones that are setting hips well have already been used in test crosses as seed parents. This helps to decrease generation time for the most promising seedlings being used in breeding.
Not âbeheadingâ, and letting hips form will definitely have an effect on overall seedling growth, however, the effect on growth is information that I want to know early. If I lived in a more northern (colder) climate, I might be more interested in allowing seedlings to achieve sufficient size to survive the winter and would follow a different strategy.
As a new person here and the attempt to breed, can I ask what I think is trivial/important. Jim Sproul has sort of brought my question forward. So the question is.
In general, whether it be a modern or OGR seedling how soon/quick can you get F[sub]1[/sub] and F[sub]2[/sub] and so forth in say one season(12mths). I understand this migfht not be possible outside, but what about in say a hothouse/glasshouse/ igloo enviorment.
Dave, some ogr can take a few years to get their first bloom. Itâs very much a case of horses-for-courses. The hulthemia seeds Jim sent over last year flowered in their first year and I already have my first gen. of seeds in the fridge. âWild Roverâ x âTuscany Superbâ is in its second year and has not flowered. âScabrosaâ x âBlack Jadeâ is coming up to 5 years old now without a flower yet. An OP seedling from an unknown moss I have is coming into its 4th year and I still havenât seen a flower. OP 0-47-19 seeds sent over bloomed in their first year and I have seeds from them now in their second year because it took me a year to work out what to do with them.
It is possible, and very desirable, to select for precocity.
The Florist and Pomologist, p. 95 (1882)
"Adverting to the Influence Of Selection on Precocity, M. Carrière mentions the fact that while the seedling Roses of fifty years ago took six or eight years to produce their flowers, it is not now unusual to see them flowering the first year. "
Much of this improvement occurred because Van Mons (1835) informed French-speaking people that it was possible. I think this should be done before diploid species are crossed, and the chromosomes doubled, to broaden the gene pool of modern garden roses.
One of the difficulties of breeding with species is that by the time the breeder has bred out the undesirable qualities of the species (long juvenile phase, single flowers, uninteresting colors, etc.), the desirable qualities are too diluted to be of much value. For example, if we want to raise an amphidiploid of Rosa rugosa and some Synstyle, we would be ahead of the game if the Rugosa used came from a selected strain that flowered the first year from seed. And if the Synstyle were also precocious in flowering (compared with the original form), so much the better.
It is also worth noting that seedlings that are precocious in flowering tend to be more floriferous when mature.
Karl
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âIt is also worth noting that seedlings that are precocious in flowering tend to be more floriferous when mature.â
EventuallyâŚ
I am at this point: there are appearing in my rugosa derived population a few early flowering plants, one at five leaves.
If intrigued I am not so happy with this as the first thing I want from seedlings is to build a strong plant and rugosa delayed first flowering is an appreciable help.
By the way as there are no earlier flowering species than rugosa in these seedlings it is sort of demonstrating that it is delayed first flowering failure.
Well even I would have be-headed that one at 5 leaves⌠And I would probably be tempted to toss it out altogether, but that is just meâŚ
I have finally found this pic of some seedlings which were bred in 2010, This is was taken when they were 9mths old and obtained this height and vigour due to beheading at an early age, so every thing was put into growth and not reproduction.
[attachment 839 01011.jpg]
Thatâs amazing growth, not stringy. It took me awhile to figuire out what you meant by flower and stalk, so now Iâm down the line and will dead head a few. This Dynasty seedling will be one.
[attachment 890 Dynastyseedling001.JPG]
This first flower from a Peace seedling was just pollenated also.
[attachment 891 PeaceSeedling002.JPG]
I hope Dynasty is as great a rose for you as it was in Newhall. Vigorous, healthy, always in flower, just a great plant there. Vision was another really very good rose there.
Neil I like the colour of the Dynasty seedling, the foliage is good and healthy as well. The Peace seedling looks great as well, I hope it puts on a few more petals for you, what is the cross Peace X ?. Peace can give you some great results, but what you cross it with must be quite sound against BS. Here is a cross a did Safrano X Peace , plant has no PM or BS and flowers all through the year, we are near mid winter here and its still flowering.
[attachment 892 HeleneDeTroie3.jpg]
This is peace used again with (Baronne Ed Rothschild X Mme C Testou) X Peace, this plant again is very sound health wise.
[attachment 896 DAMADELLAGO2.jpg]
Itâs one of my favorites and tough. Just a two foot twig was left after a tree took all the sun for years and only in the last two years and in a different place did it fully recover. Neil
Kim, I should have wrote Dynasty was one of my favorites.
Warren, Great flowers, My Peace gave me a lot of trouble and was just full of virus so it was shoveled two years ago. I could hardly get any hips and the seeds took two years to germinate so I was surprized to see this seedling in the batch that wintered over in the house. With the info that Karl K posted I thought maybe something easier to work with would come from a early cross so Strike It Rich pollen was used. The Peace seedling was OP.
You donât have to use it as a seed parent Neil, the pollen gives great results. Find something that is healthy, sets abundant hips and has a good record for offspring, you canât go wrong. Go on HMF and look at the first generation crosses involving Peace and see the pattern.
One year I thought I had found a new Peace to use as a pollinator, when I went over to get the pollen it had mosaic virus really bad, I wasnât happy. At my new place of employment they have a climbing very old Peace, a shrub of Peace and a stack of Peace offspring , all look clean as a whistle.
Thatâs good to know because this seedling had a lot of pollen and I about gave up on Chicago Peace but will start collecting the pollen to spread around. Thanks. Neil
This could be a reason to dead headhttp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110801094715.htm
Interesting, this one supports your linked article. Thanks for posting it!
[quote=pierre]
âIt is also worth noting that seedlings that are precocious in flowering tend to be more floriferous when mature.â
EventuallyâŚ
I am at this point: there are appearing in my rugosa derived population a few early flowering plants, one at five leaves.
If intrigued I am not so happy with this as the first thing I want from seedlings is to build a strong plant and rugosa delayed first flowering is an appreciable help.
By the way as there are no earlier flowering species than rugosa in these seedlings it is sort of demonstrating that it is delayed first flowering failure.[/quote]
Pierre,
I understand your point. Overly floriferous plants can âbloom themselves shortâ, so to speak. Disbudding can help them along, but that can be a lot of work. On the other hand, such anxious bloomers might be just the thing for mating with late bloomers that need to make considerable growth before they get to blooming. âPeaceâ, to name one example, is a profuse bloomer once it gets some growth â 5 or 6 feet. It can bloom when smaller, of course, but isnât as impressive.
Karl
Iâve found more research along this line that seems to suggest that the variability is more developmental than mendelian. Breese, et al. (1965) set out to learn whether perennial ryegrass (Lolium perenne) can be improved (made to yield more tillers) by vegetative selection. They concluded with a definite yes and no.
âAn experiment has shown that the rate of tillering (= asexual reproduction) in perennial ryegrass can be significantly altered by selection within clones. The response to this somatic selection depended on the age of the clone such that response was obtained in young clones raised from seedlings but not in clones with a long history of uninterrupted asexual propagation. The response was also dependent on the genotype of the clone and there was some evidence to suggest that the somatic lability of genotypes was predisposed by a history of adaptation to asexual propagation previous to the sexual cycle.â
While seedlings and young clones more âlabileâ (or variable in growth rate) than old clones, seedlings of old clones are not quite so labile as those raised from younger clones (or seedlings of seedlings).
We may note that some roses have been improved by vegetative selection. âCommandant Beaurepaireâ started out as a once bloomer but Moreau-Robert kept working on it until it rebloomed. Similarly, âGeneral Jacqueminotâ bloomed like a HP when it was introduced, but Reymond worked it until it bloomed like an HT. I donât know how far this might work with roses that are already a century or more old. But seedling from them might be more âlabileâ. Would âReine des Violettesâ and âIndigoâ be any more popular if they bloomed more?
Karl
Karl