the never make this cross again list

I have started a list called crosses to NEVER MAKE AGAIN. Top of the list is Gemini x Home Run. Why? I have actually lost count, but the majority of the seedlings that germinate are rootless. Of those that have some root system, the majority stop growth at the third trifoilate. And those that are able to keep it together and develop a bloom, have this really odd bloom with different petal lengths. I have used Home Run quite extensively and have only occasionally run into the rootless seedling problem. I have quite a few Gemini seedlings this year from an assortment of crosses, and again have never experienced any odd ball seedlings.

Running a more distant second is Loving Touch x Everest Double Fragrance. Both are leggy and the seedlings are even worse.

What is on your lists?


Rosa rugosa X eglanteria

I was thinking I’d get something of a monster, but all of the seedlings were runty, weak growers. And when they finally did bloom (after several years of waiting), the flowers were pathetic – made up of shriveled/crinkled petals (like irregular, tiny, little pieces of pink crepe paper).

I would still like to do the reverse cross however!

Over half the crosses I did have not germinated. Considering some of these were wide crosses that’s not too bad. There are none so far I would not make again. At least I know better now what I shouldn’t vest a lot of time with this Spring.

Btw, I’ve discovered rootless seedlings will sometimes root if you position the stem back down into the soil.

Anything with Neptune (90% red and mildewed), Ruffian (any wannabe HT mini really, ugh), Lagerfeld (100% gorgeous disasters lol), Outta the Blue (they like…defoliated while growing lol). There are more. Ive done more cross ideas than I have memory :confused:

Well it was bound to happen, after putting Gemini x Home Run on the top of this list because of all of the mutant seedlings, one of the few to make it looks GREAT. I might have to rethink this.



Liz: Definitely a keeper. Bob Williams New Orleans

New Dawn I will never use again! Poor seedparent.

Timo, try ‘Armada’. It’s very easy. You get New Dawn and Silver Jubilee. It gives mostly light colors however.

As Timo, I will never try to use New Dawn again, it is a waste of time!

Can you all tell me your New Dawn experiences?

I imagine that its close relation to Hybrid Perpetuals can cause issues in seedlings, no?

very very low seedrate. Maybe one or two in every fruit.

It’s triploid. Not that good for further breathing.

Sets hips good but thats it… About the fertility and color I can’t say much, still no New Dawn seedlingblossom.

Hmmm, I plan on using City of London as a pollen parent this year. Maybe that is advisable for the rest of you? It has Radox Bouquet in it, which is proven to pass on strong scent. Also, C of L can produce climbers, too.

I’ve had City of London for many years. It sets seed well, athough the hips appear ratty even before they mature. They germinate normally. I don’t have a lot of disease pressure in my cool climate, but City of London tends to blackspot quite easily. I don’t spray or adhere to normal garden routines. Is City of London healthy in your yard? If so, I might re-think using it with healthier partners.


I dont own it, but there are a lot of local gardens with it (easy pollen access). However, I do own Rosy Future, which is similar.

Uhm, I dont recall any blackspot on either tho.

Most all crosses done with “Hope for Humanity” had resulted in ugly diseased plants.


The Roberts, thanks I really was blown away with this one. The color is not quite right in the photo. It is closer to Gemini’s coloration in person.

Terry, I briefly had Hope for Humanity on my possibles list a few years ago. Not quite sure why I removed it from the list. Good to know that it is not throwing good seedlings. What have you tried it with?

Interesting about New Dawn, if memory serves, wasn’t it used quite extensively at one time??



That is good to know. Perhaps it’s just my garden. I no longer have Rosy Future, but I don’t recall disease issues with it. Perhaps there is still hope with City of London. I’m thinking explorer pollen.

I plan on crossing both of them with HT’s that like to throw climbers.

Liz, I had high hopes for working with Hope for Humanity, though crosses with Winnipeg Parks and Quadra were total rejects, not one seedling had shown any promise.