Just wondering if anyone has gotten seeds from Tangerine Jewel to germinate? I think Paul mentioned once that no one had luck getting TJ seeds to germinate. I was wondering if that was still the case. I have 3 of this rose (I love the color when the flower first opens) and all 3 of them have an abundance of hips. Just wondering if its worth the time to try and get them to germinate
Tangerine Jewel is sure a beautiful rose! I suspect there is a high rate of aneuploidy (incomplete sets of chromosomes) among it’s offspring which can contribute to reduced viability of such offspring. Applying its pollen heavily and pollen competition weeding out some of the less viable gametes may make it easier to use as a male parent. I did a root tip squash and confirmed that Tangerine Jewel is a triploid.
If Tangerine Jewel is a triploid, I wonder what Out of Yesteryear is. Looking at its parentage, I would then assume it is a triploid as well? I think Paul B had mentioned that OofY works well as a pollen parent. Would its offspring (pollen on a tetraploid) be a mix of triploids and tetraploids? Wonder what Out of Yesteryear pollen on diploids might yeald. Mixture of diploids and triploids? I may try OofY on New Dawn to see what happens.
I had some distant plans of putting Tangerine Jewel pollen on some assorted Buck roses.
I have assorted OP seedlings of ‘Precious Dream’ Some resemble Out of Yesteryear and some are more orange.
Odd that Tangerine Jewel is triploid. I would have thought both parents tetra?
Maybe Muriel is a fertile triploid like New Dawn, with a mix of diploid or tetraploid pollen grains. But let’s say the a diploid grain pollinated the tetraploid Sequoia Gold to produce Out of Yesteryear, which may had produced a triploid again. And like Muriel, Out of Yesterday is a fertile triploid with mixed diploid and tetraploid pollen. And when Out of Yesteryear pollinated Joycie, which is most likely a tetraploid, it produced the known triploid.
So a triploid, produces another triploid, and another triploid? Now that’s intresting… But many of Moore’s miniatures has Golden Glow and R. wichuraiana as parents. I believe that there are many diploid, triploid minis out there…
It would be something intresting to cross Iceberg and Tangerine Jewel. It has a potential to produce diploid and tetraploid offspring if I’m thinking correctly.
If this were true then ‘Pecious Dream’ would likely also be tiploid? In the case of OP seedlings would we then get the offspring sorted out into diploid and tetraploid forms or could we also get triploids?
I got OP hips on ‘Stardust’ the frist year it was planted but it’s set very fews hips since.
I’ve never been particularly interested in ‘Tangerine Jewel’. I find it the least attractive of the three in my climate, though the form of the flower would certainly make it easy to work with.
As an aside, my banksia hybrid should be a sterile triploid as well, but appears fully fertile as a pollen parent.
I confirmed ‘Stardust’ to be a tetraploid. I don’t have plants of ‘Precious Dream’ or ‘Out of Yesteryear’ to get root tips from. Maybe someday I will get them and can confirm them and share those results.
Sometimes surprises in ploidy just come up as well. I’ve gotten a triploid from a cross of two tetraploids as well as a hexaploid from an open pollinated diploid. Such surprises seem very rare though. However, we as breeders have an eye for selecting the unusual and when unexpected ploidy contributes to the unusual phenotypes of outliers, we may be more prone to select those with unusual ploidy. I know that’s definately the case with this hexaploid.
‘Muriel’ is R. bracteata X ‘Guinee’
‘Sequoia Gold’ is (‘Little Darling’ X ‘Lemon Delight’) X ‘Gold Badge’
‘Out of Yesteryear’ is ‘Sequoia Gold’ X ‘Muriel’
R. bracteata is a Diploid, ‘Guinee’ is almost certainly a Tetraploid. It is reasonable to assume that ‘Muriel’ is a fertile Triploid. ‘Muriel’, however, does not set seed (in my experience) and works as a pollen parent only. (with some reluctance, I might add. It works only on certain seed parents) It is also reasonable to conclude that ‘Muriel’ gives at least a certain percentage of pollen with even chromosome counts; either 7’s or 14’s, possibly both. (It would be interesting to know what percentage of each is actually produced)
‘Sequoia Gold’ Includes 25% ‘Little Darling’ and 50% ‘Gold Badge’ in its pedigree. ‘Lemon Delight’, the other 25%, includes a great deal of Hybrid Tea and Floribunda genes it its makeup as well. It is almost an absolute certainty that ‘Sequoia Gold’ is a Tetraploid.
‘Sequoia Gold’, when bred with pollen from ‘Muriel’ produced ‘Out of Yesteryear’. As stated earlier, for ‘Muriel’ to be fertile, it must be producing 7 and/or 14 chromosome gametes. It appears at this point that it is luck of the draw whether ‘Out of Yesteryear’ is a Tetraploid or a fertile Triploid. It could indeed be either. My assumption at this stage had been that it must have reached the Tetraploid stage, since we know that the evolution of the early Hybrid Teas went through a painful stage where Triploidy was a common stumbling block. They did, however, emerge as an entirely Tetraploid race. Many writers have concluded that in hybridizing, roses strive to achieve stable gene counts as a survival mechanism. Man tends to select Tetraploids from the breeding program, as it is these that appear more attractive and more vigorous than their siblings. Again, I had come to believe ‘Out of Yesteryear’ a Tetraploid, since it is fertile in the extreme as a pollen parent, and reasonably fertile as a seed parent also. Its offspring are almost always extrememly healthy and vigorous, showing many desirable qualities.
So, what about ‘Tangerine Jewel’? It came out of a cross of ‘Joycie’ X ‘Out of Yesteryear’. 'Joycie is “1-72-1”(‘Little Darling’ X ‘Yellow Magic’) X ‘Gold Badge’. Further back, ‘Yellow Magic’ is 50% ‘Golden Glow’, and an un-named ‘Little Darling’ seedling. As we already know, ‘Golden Glow’ is a fertile Triploid, so ‘Yellow Magic’ could be anything as far as ploidy is concerned. “1-72-1” could be a fertile Triploid if 'Yellow Magic is a Diploid or fertile Triploid, but my guess is that it has jumped up to Tetraploid status. It is highly fertile as both seed and pollen parent, sometimes germinating at near 100%. It has parented many vigorous, handsome offspring. ‘Joycie’, then, is “1-72-1” X ‘Gold Badge’. Even if “1-72-1” is a fertile Triploid, it seems likely that ‘Joycie’ would have made the leap up to Tetraploidy, since it breeds with anything and has excellent vigor. (I hope I am not assuming ‘Gold Badge’ to be a Tetraploid, erroneously)
Where does that leave us? ‘Tangerine Jewel’. A known Triploid. How??? At this point, I would have to conclude that its uneven gene count arose as a spontaneous accident (since ‘Star Dust’ is a confirmed Tetraploid’), or that of its two parents, one is a Triploid. But which one? Based solely on the fact that ‘Out of Yesteryear’ is only two generations away from a Diploid species, my guess is that it must be the fertile Triploid (or even Diploid?). Curiously, Ralph Moore confided in me just 10 days ago that he was starting to use ‘Tangerine Jewel’ in breeding and he was quite excited about its prospects. Knowing what a mixed bag his 70 years of work has been, genetically, it wouldn’t surprise me if a large part of his work involved fertile Triploids. He has often said to me that he didn’t spend much time worrying about matching Ploidy in his breeders, as long as he got results. He is a strong believer in the notion that roses want to continue to pass on genes, and so they often find a way to do it, even if gene counts get messy. How can you argue with a man who has produced well over 400 named roses in his career?!
David, if you are interested in doing a chromosome count of any of these varieties in order to unravel the mystery, I can provide tissue samples. (You would have to instruct me how to prepare samples, of course)
Paul, out of curiosity, do you know if Mr. Moore has had success with Tangerine Jewel seeds germinating?
Although he did not come right out and say so, he certainly implied that he was already looking at some trial seedlings. I will ask him directly and get back to you.