Tell me, please, my cross with the participation of the spinosissima hybrid was divided into strongly prickly seedlings and non-prickly ones. Is it worth thinking that those that are not abundantly covered with thorns will not inherit frost resistance?
Thanks a lot in advance!
No imo, based on Red Dawn x Suzanne experience in my zone 4A CDN garden. Red Dawn very tender and doesn’t survive in my climate, but cross with spino does.
Some crosses don’t survive - eg Golden Wings.
… both roses do not have spino “porcupine” bristle density and form. More like common low sensity “thorns”.
Depending on how old the seedlings are, the thorns may change. I have some seedlings with spinosissima as the seed parent. Most of the seedlings just looked selfs until they got a bit older. Same plant, base vs upper
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There is no evidence for this. There is some evidence against this idea, since “hardiness” is polygenic.
Adding to Plazbo’s great visual proof, below photos from today of lower canes on Suzanne (laxa? x spino) and Red Dawn x Suzanne (2 crosses result with 1 tender in genes ?) showing very different thorns and bristles density and form - completely hardy in my zone - bushes 5 to 10 years old.
Plants are aggressively pruned to maintain a compact form ( aka compressed planting and confined space- haven’t moved to rose bonzi yet)
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Any more experience with these crosses?
I was able to use Red Dawn x Suzanne pollen some this year
(it set no hips from the pollen I placed on it).
I have Suzanne but I am still waiting on blooms to collect pollen.
I have a few seedlings being tested Aloha Hawaii x Williams Double Yellow, but no
blooms yet.
Used RDxS as seed and pollen parent this summer. Hips and seed obtain for both types and some fails. Waiting to c if germinate so awhile yet to go.
glad to hear you were able to use it both ways. I had no hips set on it. Perhaps it needs to get established more. Good to know, so I’ll retest it later, and perhaps try diversity of pollens to see what it takes.
Duane
Mine never been prodigious hip setters for me … young ones 3 to 5 years old maybe a half to a dozen at most for a good bloomer. Older 5-8 years old bush can get more than a dozen or so. Definitely better than Lillian Gibson. Though my LG did germinate an OP seedling last April (outside winter test plot seed burial). Looks like LG in habit and leaf form. Lifted and brought in last month and under lights.
Not got one out of RDxS as selfie … probably just a matter of time and effort (read patience “effort”)
Duane, did you obtain your RDxS commercially, by any chance? I’ve looked for this one for a long time, but to no avail. I have no idea if it would survive well in my climate (Suzanne is allergic to the conditions, although some of its descendants fare quite well), so I’d really prefer to pay some vendor good money to avoid any guilt issues!
Stefan
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I sourced a European version last year from RosenPosten Denmark. Don’t know if US allows import.
US always reads as an insurmountable bureaucratic hassle on rose lust websites - something about having to have imports in quarantine plots for a long time.
Here need CFIA license about ~ $100 and for specific approved foreign nurseries, professional phytosanitary inspection and cert at source req’d and accompanying roses for border security inspection. Really surprised Cornhill who use do US export doesn’t appear to carry it.
A prize Alberta rose for me hybridized by Edmonton’s Simonet. Prize because totally hardy for me, good to acceptable bloom strength, but not a stunner, puts a bloom or two until freeze up with a pause after spring first flush. Used in Explorer series, Dr Zelesky id as triploid l believe - see his HMF photo note.
Got a half dozen examples as l can rely on it for a good show.
… forgot did try Red Dawn (3) from Pickering, bud wood donated to them sourced from P. Oulsen. Protected but to no avail - all gone in 3 seasons. Another Simonet hybridization.
Remember a huge light red bloom size … pity not a picogram of hardiness protein.
Point is, tender x rock hardy = hardy … sometimes … RDxS is a brilliant goal example of it canbe done (without dominate rugosa genes) in my books to achieve an acceptable hardy shrub rose ( done by a double geranium guru breeder).
Yep, importing roses from most foreign countries directly into the U.S. requires quarantine measures that would put off all but the most determined folks with the means to go through with it. Canada is a rare exception, as there is an agreement between the two countries makes it relatively easy to import roses. Ordering from Cornhill and Palatine is quite simple and relatively inexpensive (a bargain, really); I used to order from Pickering all of the time, and Hortico on occasion. However, I’m not aware of any U.S. or exporting Canadian nurseries that carry RDxS, nor have I seen it for sale over the many years that I’ve been watching for it!
I agree that the model of tender x rock hardy is one to emulate for other potential successes (or at least stepping stones to potential successes), although the pool of rock hardy parents that have a known history of producing hardy winners is a very small one. If Suzanne would only be content to just limp along and bloom a little here, I’d take its pollen for a spin myself. Maybe I need to try babying it under lights in air conditioning over the summer like I’ve done before with Soleil d’Or and some other outdoor lost causes…
Stefan
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Duane,
Here is a couple of clips out of my 2022 hybridization crosses Excel log (partial) for this summer past involving RDxS as both seed and pollen parent.
“Hip Y/N” column plus"Seed QTY" column gives result of cross harvest,
Note “1 to 3” seed cases as seed parent. For these I attach a low probability of germination. Skeptical of pollen cases high seed counts with Hunter and R. Carolina … for R. helenae hybrida and Lykkefund (thornless MF) high seed counts I have all fingers, toes and legs crossed and sitting on wooden floor in hope.
The seeds are still in life below 0C rest since Oct 5.
First clip RDxS as Seed Parent
| # | Seed Parent | Poloidy | Pollen Parent | Poloidy | Hips Y/N | Harvest Date 2022 | Seed Qty | Stratify Date 2022 | Pot Date 2023 | Germ Date 2023 | Plant Count |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | RDxS | triploid | Basye Purple | diploid | y | Sept 16 | 1 | 05-Oct | |||
| 2 | RDxS | triploid | Helenae hybrida | y | Sept 16 | 3 | 05-Oct | ||||
| 3 | RDxS | triploid | Hunter | y | Sept 16 | 1 | 05-Oct | ||||
| 4 | RDxS | triploid | Lykkefund | diploid? | n | Sept 16 | 0 |
Second clip RDxS as Pollen Parent
| 45 | Helena hybrida | diploid | RDxS | triploid | y | Sept 16 | 31 | 05-Oct | |||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 50 | Hunter | RDxS | triploid | y | Sept 16 | 60 | 05-Oct | ||||
| 87 | Merveille | RDxS | triploid | y | Sept 16 | 2 | 05-Oct | ||||
| 104 | R. carolina | tetraploid | RDxS | triploid | y | Sept 16 | 45 | 05-Oct | |||
| 5 | 6910 | RDxS | triploid | n | Sept 16 | 0 | |||||
| 71 | Lillian Gibson | triploid | RDxS | triploid | n | Sept 16 | 0 | ||||
| 78 | Lykkefund | diploid | RDxS | triploid | y | Sept 16 | 33 | 05-Oct |
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Just a thought. Do you know which parent is diploid vs tetraploid in your cross Red Dawn X Suzanne. or is it more complex than like triploid X diploid gives triploids.
As far as I have made myself aware, Skinner’s Suzanne is a tetraploid.
But I have not found any science based testing results on determining Simonet’s Red Dawn’s ploidy.
However from HMF, the latter (Simonet’s Red Dawn) is supposedly a cross of the following,
Red Dawn = New Dawn (climber) × Étoile de Hollande (climber and HT versions)
Who are supposedly giving Simonet’s Red Dawn as a cross of;
(Simonet’s) Red Dawn = Diploid X Tetraploid?
meaning,
Red Dawn X Suzanne (Simonet’s) ~/= (Diploid x Tetraploid) X Tetraploid ~/= Triploid
(product ploidy per Dr. Zelesak work release)
Pity I was not advanced enough in hybridizing 20 years ago when I grew New Dawn, Etoile de Hollande and Red Dawn. Too tender for my climate in the garden, but l could have grabbed the pollen for arctic flash freezing.
… I think Simonet must of had a lovely warm greenhouse in those days when he created his piece de resistance for the prairies (at the time).
Financed by his 1930’s genius in figuring out how Japan hybridized the double “petunia”” ( petunia as per pers comm correction).
Hi Rick
Simonet figured out the double petunia not geranium.
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Petunia probably Worth more, based on mass marketing success of the “pink wave tsunami”.
Txs senior’s recall moment - have many of those lately … easy excuse for not rechecking.
Good article of a great
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