My fave is the acicularis x parkland from above. Looks like it has Prairie Joy in it.
Chuckp,
Burbank holds a special place in my heart. He was the first plant breeder I learned about, when I was in second grade.
At that time a local supermarket was selling the Golden Book Encyclopedia, one volume each week. And so, my introduction to the subject came in alphabetical order: Burbank, Genetics, Heredity, Hybrids, Mutations, etc.
After I moved to California, I took the first opportunity I had to visit the Burbank house. I visited there several times over the years, and his Sebastapol place a couple of times.
But before Burbank there was Van Mons, who had a major influence on French speaking plant breeders of the early 19th century. And a lesser influence on some English speaking breeders.
His System of Plant Breeding was a bit involved, but he was particularly interested in reducing the time from seed to fruit, as well as on increased yield and better quality. Some of his pears are still cultivated.
He also raised roses, before he went on to tree fruit. He even raised a black rose he called Cocarde dâAutrich (Austrian Cockade), but it was taken from him by the owner of the garden where he experimented. I canât find that it was ever introduced to the general public.
Some critics didnât see the sense in some of his methods, but I have found more recent research that confirms most of his points.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/King/VanMons.html
Karl
Rosa x hibernica is another species that has been used a little, with a few hybrids available for further breeding.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/Rose_Pictures/Rosa/R_hibernica.html
âIt is remarkable for continuing in blossom from the early part of June till the middle of November.â So, here is an opportunity for breeding hardy rebloomers that do not rely on the tender Tea/China varieties. Its hybrids with HTs also rebloom.
If the flowers of these are a bit small, one could always cross them with âSchoenerâs Nutkanaâ for a dose of mega-bloom.
I think it would be interesting to cross Hibernica with âHansaâ, for example. The blooms might not be show quality, but winter-kill should not be a problem.
There is another possibility that could be explored. This âspeciesâ is believed to be derived from hybrids of R. spinosissima and R. canina. If so, it should be possible to recreate the type with improved selections of the parents. The double-flowered Scotch Roses come to mind, as well as âDoorenbos Selectionâ.
Karl
More than 15 years ago (2000) I ordered Innocence, Irish Fireflame, and Isobel from Sequoia, thinking that they might be useful parents for disease resistance. They were delivered in March 2001. Irish Fireflame was the strongest of the lot, and none of them ever produced even one viable seed for me. Innocence and Isobel got very bad black spot and died within two years. Irish Fireflame did set 2-3 OP hips one year, but the seeds inside were hollow. It is either a triploid or a diploid with serious fertility issues. The other two died within two years, so they didnât get much of a trial with me. Amazingly, Irish Fireflame survived for me until 2015. Then I gave it away to someone who lives in a warmer climate.
Apparently Hibernica is a canina-spinosissima hybrid. When I bought the three varieties mentioned above, I was hoping to find disease resistance and hardiness. I found neitherâand poor fertility. Robert Rippetoe has grown a few hybrids from Innocence pollen, and his impression is that if there is any Hibernica in Innocence it is more than one generation back.
I wrote to ask Peter Beales his thoughts regarding the Hibernica hybrids I had ordered. Here is what he said:
Based on what Peter Bealses and Robert have said, I expect that any success breeding from Rosa hibernica will take several generations, and probably you can expect that at least two generations will be very disease-prone.
Peter
Peter,
HelpMeFind has R. x hibernica as hexaploid. Pollinated by HTs, it should give pentaploids. But you never know with roses.
According to English Botany 31, t. 2196 (1824), Hibernica should bloom over a long period, contrary to HMF.
Also, I donât know whether it has been determined which of the supposed parent species was the seed parent. If Canina was the pollen parent, the offspring should be triploid. And so the chromosomes must have been duplicated to give a hexaploid.
But if the cross is reversed, we should expect a hexaploid with Caninae-type meiosis, or nearly.
Maybe a cross of Hibernica with âDoorenbos Selectionâ would be in order to re-enforce the reblooming habit and maybe restore fertility.
Karl
What if it is a 4 + 2 Caninae style? Like if a 4 + 1 pentaploid Canina got pollinated by a 2 + 2 spinosissima. Then HT pollen would yield hexaploids and using its pollen on tetraploid HTs would yield tetraploids.
If only it were so simple. Crossing a Caninae species with a regular polyploid leads to a messy sort of meiosis that is neither perfectly regular nor perfectly irregular. Blackhurst (1949) reported on this mess.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/Hurst/BLKHURST.HTM
Karl
Peter, a little off topicâŚIsobel and Innocence originated from The Huntington. Irish Fireflame came from the very old, large plant in the rose garden at the old Korbel Winery mansion. Gregg Lowery and Philip Robinson permitted me to take cuttings of the REAL Irish Fireflame from that plant, which I propagated at The Huntington in their mist table, then shared it with Carolyn at Sequoia. Ah, those WERE the âgood, old daysâ!
Just taking a chanceâ
I googled for the ploidy of Irish Fireflame.
Bingo!
http://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/bitstream/10603/24020/11/11_chapter%205.pdf
P. 40 says Irish Fireflame is triploid.
Even if Irish Fireflame has R. hibernica in it, chances are that it is 2 or 3 (or more) generations before Irish Fireflame A lot of strange things can happen to ploidy in that span. If the cross were HT x R. hibernica, or the reverse, maybe simple calculation would give us the likely ploidy. But things do not always work that way in crosses. And if 2 or 3 generations are involved, the calculations become increasingly irrelevant.
Anyway, for what itâs worth, according to this source, Irish Fireflame is triploid.
We can all rest easily now that we knowâŚor think we know.
Peter
Speaking of hexaploids, another species that has also not had much use, that Iâve always thought might be worth working with, is R. sweginzowii. It should have straight forward meiosis (3n gametes) and Iâve always thought it would be useful in creating interesting tetraploids from diploid partners. I have sweginzowii âMacrocarpaâ (see: 'Rosa sweginzowii 'Macrocarpa'' Rose) and it is very clean here, compared to others from the moyesii complex such as davidii var. elongata and moyesii hybrids such as âEddieâs Jewelâ that I grow or have grown in the past. Iâve always wanted to know whether Sweg. âmacrocarpaâ is also a hexaploid but given its garden origin (from Sangerhausen) it could be anything, though it is very fertile so Iâm assuming it is either hexaploid or tetraploid. According to articles Henry has posted before (see Species roses and blackspot - Rose Hybridizers Association Forum) sweginzowii is meant to have a particular type of interaction with Diplocarpon rosae that, if I am interpreting the information correctly, prevents any fungal interaction/penetration beyond the cuticle. It does seem to get a little downy mildew but nothing major. In the past sweg. âMacrocarpaâ has accepted a wide range of diploid pollen though I have had no luck in getting the seed to germinate. Large numbers of seed have developed in each case. I have managed to get only one germination and that was from the widest cross I could ever imagine. It was sweg. âMacrocarpaâ x R. gignatea and I only managed to get this one by embryo extraction. The seedling, attached here, grew nicely for a few weeks and then suddenly died with no warning. The seedling on the right is an OP sweg. âMacrocarpaâ seedling for comparison. I intend to put hulthemia pollen onto it this season from the diploid hybrid called âSweet Spot Calypsoâ which is itself very fertile (with very average health). From the link Henry posted above I also find it interesting that moyesii also is listed as having a type 8 interaction with black spot and it features in the pedigree of KO. Iâve always thought the black spot resistance of KO was largely due to its moyesii heritage.
[attachment=0]Sweginzowiixgiganteacomparisonpic.jpg[/attachment]
Peter,
Thanks for the info.
I donât know how I can rest easy pondering how a (reported) hexaploid crossed with a Hybrid Tea (triploid or tetraploid) could produce triploid progeny. Yes, roses do some strange things with their chromosomes.
And I also find little comfort in some of the chromosome counts that have been reported from various quarters.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/12538078.2002.10515972
Among other things, the authors inform us that âNew Dawnâ is a diploid; âZephirine Drouhinâ, âLady Hillingdonâ and âPenelopeâ are tetraploid.
All of these are generally regarded as triploids.
And here is a table of various roses sorted by nuclear DNA amount. Strange to say, the pentaploid R. canina has more DNA than hexaploid R. moyesii.
âIn the Pimpinellifoliae, DNA amounts of tetraploids were disproportionately larger than those of diploids which suggests that they originated as hybrids with species of sections with larger DNA amounts.â
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/YokoyaDNA2000.html
Karl
Now I get it!
I like âIrish Fireflameâ well enough as a shrub, but really didnât understand itâs lasting appeal.
Then I found this:
Garden and greenhouse roses / A.N. Pierson Inc.; Cromwell, Conn. 1915
IRISH FIRE FLAME
A new departure in Roses for Winter forcing. Irish Fire Flame is a single Rose with only five petals, and is the most striking and the best single Rose Messrs. Dickson & Son have ever raised. It flowers profusely during the Winter months. The bud is an intense fiery crimson at the top, shading at the base of the petals to a rich orange salmon. The open flower is bright salmon. It is of strong vigorous growth with dark green foliage, reverse of leaf deep bronze.
Thanks for that, Karl! Irish Elegance and Irish Fireflame both flowered heavily and continuously for me, as heavily and reliably as the best floribundas of today do.
Kim,
Good to know.
And now this:
The Garden, Volume 80: 600 (Dec 9, 1916)
Decorative Roses
Blush Rambler still heads the list, followed by Irish Fireflame, Mme. Edouard Herriot, Hiawatha and Irish Elegance. That fine new Rose Irish Fireflame, a lovely orange copper sport from Irish Elegance, has at the first time of asking taken its place in the table at No. 2, being bracketed with Mine. Edouard Herriot, terra-cotta, introduced in the same year.
Karl
Very interesting, Karl, thank you. Iâve never found anything indicating it was a sport of Elegance. Growing both for years, I would never have even considered it as a sport. Fireflame looks much more like a Pernetiana than Elegance. Of course Fireflame was the âHoly Grailâ because it appeared to not be available, but Elegance was (and is) my preference between the two as far as a garden and landscape plant. It really IS âelegantâ. Fireflame has the more brilliantly colored petal, but Elegance is a much more interesting specimen in all other aspects. I would grow and play with it again. I never got anything from it (either direction) but HMF shows it did have one offspring many decades ago, as seed parent. The three seeds I ever discovered on it were HUGE. It set hips all over the plant and almost all were empty. When I found a seed, it was the only one in the hip. I remember dropping one on the ground and not being able to find it. I also remember dropping one down the kitchen sink drain while cleaning it. The other I think I planted but nothing germinated.
If you havenât already, would you please put that reference in HMF for Fireflame? Thank you!
Kim,
I added the note to HMF before I brought it here.
I did find a mention that âIrish Fireflameâ did not grow quite so tall as âIrish Eleganceâ, but forgot to copy it.
It can happen that a sport will differ in more ways than flower color or growth habit.
A Rose Odyssey (1937: p123-124)
J H NicolasIn 1933 I had found a curious sport on Margaret McGredy. The foliage strongly resembled Rugosa but the plant characteristics also leaned toward R. cinnamomea. I mentioned this fact to Sam III [McGredy] when I visited him in 1934. Sam could not account for the sport. He had never used species in his breeding. His brother-in-law, Walter I. Johnston, spoke up, âYour father did much more work with species.â We adjourned to the office, where complete hybridizing records from the early days of the firm are kept, one volume for each year, a valuable library. After several hours of research we traced the origin of Margaret McGredy to crosses of Rugosa and Cinnamomea. They were, of course, many generations back. But as these two species are in the blood stream of Margaret McGredy and all modern McGredy roses, the possibility of the sport was explained. It is an accepted fact that hybrids alone sport (pure species mutate, but rarely, if ever, sport) and can sport only within what is in them.*
Lately, the most unusual thing has happened to that sport. A sport is supposed to be a part of the hybrid compound which âtook a walkâ. But this sport must have carried the whole pack as it has sported again a Hybrid Tea type with a magnificent bloom much more intensely colored than the original Margaret McGredy and is a distinctly a different rose. I am planning to name it âMargaret Secondâ.
It would be interesting to find âIrish Afterglowâ to see if it âtook a walkâ back to the âIrish Eleganceâ type of growth.
A cross between a yellow Tea and a Pernetiana should be triploid, so maybe thatâs the origin.
Karl
It now appears that âIrish Eleganceâ and the others were the consequences of a deliberate program of breeding for durable blooms and desirable growth habit, rather than just the happy results of various crosses.
Gardenersâ Chronicle, p. 181 (Sept 8, 1900)
NEW VARIETIES OF ROSES.
By âWild Roseâ
âTo Messrs. Dickson & Sons, of Newtownards, must be accorded the honour of introducing a race of single flowered Teas, and Hybrid Teas, in which these two objections, the rampant growth and too evanescent character of their blooms, have been obviated. These raisers have succeeded in obtaining some very beautiful flowers which are bound to find their place in most Rose gardens of the future. They are dwarf in habit and they flower continuously from June to November. At a recent show in Belfast this firm obtained the 1st prize for twelve single-flowered Roses, eleven of them being of their own raising, the twelfth being white Rugosa. The three most remarkable of these are Irish Beauty, Irish Modesty, and Irish Glory. These varieties were shown a year ago at the Crystal Palace, and were much admired. Mr. Burrell, of Cambridge, who has recently seen them at home, thinks very highly of them, and he is no mean judge.â
Eversley Gardens and Others, p. 147 (1907)
By Rose Georgina Kingsley
Messrs. Alex. Dickson & Sons, of Newtonards, have recently introduced a number of very interesting single Hybrid Teas, beginning with Irish Beauty, Irish Glory, and Irish Modesty, in 1900; the singularly brilliant Irish Star, Irish Brightness, Irish Pride, in I903; followed by the dazzling scarlet Irish Engineer, Irish Harmony, and Irish Elegance, in 1904-5. In foliage, growth, fragrance, and peculiar brilliancy of colour, this new race of Roses is a valuable acquisition to the garden. They are all free-growing, of branching habit, and admirably suited for cultivation as isolated bushes; for they attain a considerable size very quickly, and are covered with flowers till the frosts cut them.
Thank you, Karl!
Kim,
I found one mention of a pink sport of âIrish Fire Flameâ. Just one. So I guess it is premature to add it to HMF.
This may have been a misunderstanding. Someone may have thought that âIsobelâ was a sport of âIrish Fire Flameâ. I just found another item:
âIsobel is a single deep pink rose of the type best known here in Irish Fire-flame.â
Karl
Interesting, thank you!