Something different... followed by disappointment :( Rosa la

On Sunday I noticed a pot containing OP laevigata seed had a single seedling emerging… I brought it inside to ‘fuss over’ and to photograph thinking how cool this was.

Today the cotyledons burst from the testa to reveal not two, but three cotyledons :frowning: This isn’t the first time I’ve had this happen and it’s not something I usually lament. The seedlings often die on me or are unthrifty and get culled. I was really excited this one appeared and was quite encouraged to notice, in the macro below, that it seems to have a nice normal looking healthy leaf shoot forming… fingers crossed it continues to grow ok. It seems strong enough so far… but I need you all to cross everything you have to send it healthy happy grow-vibes.

David (Mears), can you please let Rosalie know she’s a Mum again! This is seed from her laevigata bush in WA.

From a reference on HMF it appears that laevigata pollen is around 98.5% fertile but 0% self-fertile so I’m expecting this to be a hybrid of some kind… which is very exciting. No further germinations at this point. You can see a photo of the seeds from a photo I uploaded to HMF.

Congratulations, Dad!

[quote=SimonV]

From a reference on HMF it appears that laevigata pollen is around 98.5% fertile but 0% self-fertile so I’m expecting this to be a hybrid of some kind… which is very exciting.

From my own experience I’d have to disagree with the HMF statement that laevigata is 0% self-fertile. My two plants of the Cherokee rose bloom very early every year when little else is blooming and one is covered with hips every year. It isn’t possible that most of these are from foreign pollen. There isn’t any available when they’re blooming. My other Cherokee is badly sited, in deep shade under a large oak. It blooms very little and only sets an occasional hip, so the two Cherokees aren’t pollinating each other either.

I guess this could be due to a number of things… the most obvious of which is location, location, location. I have never had solitary plants of laevigata form hips from anything, selfed or not. You periodically hear of certain individual plants that seem to produce their fair share of hips. I wonder if it would be worth while targetting these apparently fertile individuals with cross pollen to try and get laevigata genes into modern roses and seeing if they can be called into duty as a seed parent. I would be good to prove yours weren’t being crossed by placing small mesh bags over some of the blooms to exclude other polinators to see if they form hips. That would prove without a doubt that your plant is selfing (or not).

If this comes off Simon and Mark can you get the leaves of ‘Laevigata’ into the mix.

R. laevigata is naturalized all over this part of the southern U.S. I’ve never seen any plants that looked like hybrids. I also see a lot of plants every fall with hips. My two plants were seed-grown from a wild stand just down the road. Like Simon said, location, location, location. Maybe R. laevigata is just at home here?

Simon, is laevigata naturalized in your area?

No… Tasmania is too cold for it… I am zoned 9B but laevigata has never flowered for me down here and gets knocked back every winter. It got snowed on last winter and didn’t like that. When I lived further north, on the mainland up past Sydney, leavigata was a force to be reckoned with. Down here is is more ‘subdued’. Maybe it needs to try and build slowly here before it has enough strength cope with the winters better.

I have also read an account that states there is little or no genetic diversity between the naturalised stands/plants in the U.S. concluding that its spread was most likely from vegetative means like touchdowns and suckers. They concluded there was probably no natural spread by seed. The reference was posted on RHA some years back… will have to try and find it again to repost.

[quote=SimonV]

I have also read an account that states there is little or no genetic diversity between the naturalised stands/plants in the U.S. concluding that its spread was most likely from vegetative means like touchdowns and suckers. They concluded there was probably no natural spread by seed. The reference was posted on RHA some years back… will have to try and find it again to repost.[/quote]

I remember that account too, but I have to question the conclusion. A lot of the laevigata I see in this area is growing in places I would expect it to be if the seed was spread by birds, such as along fence lines and along the tree line next to roadways. It’s possible, of course, that these plants were deliberately placed there, but I think it’s more likely they were seedlings. I have no idea what percentage of laevigata is seed-grown and what percentage is from touchdowns and suckers, but I have to think that at least some of them are seedlings. Just my two cents. :slight_smile:

My Cherokee Rose has been spitting out the occasional bloom over an extended period this spring. It has one on it now, and it’s normally over with for at least a month or more by now. Probably weather related. We’ve have an extended spring compared to most years. Normally it gets very hot very early and doesn’t cool off until fall. This year the temps have been up and down and we haven’t seen any real heat. Anyway, what I was going to say was that the extended bloom period allowed me to make a few crosses with R. bracteata, which is not normally in bloom at the same time. I’m a little scared of what might result if I actually get seedlings!

I’m not sure that growing along fence lines doesn’t actually reinforce the idea of them being clones. My memory of this is dim but as I recall cuttings were deliberately planted along fencelines as a living stock and predator barrier.

EDIT: Found the reference with specific reference to its occurrence in the Mississippi area: How did the Cherokee Rose get to the U.S.?

EDIT 2: Just checked and a 2nd seed has germinated!

Well… there are three up now… looking at the leaves I’m wondering whether the labels might have got switched around???

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Update time: These are unusual seedlings… some of them came up normally, though half of them have come up with more than two cotyledons. One even came up with five cotyledons (top back right seedling). and it seems to be growing on normally. I’ve never experienced this before. Whenever they’ve come up with more than two cotyledons they always seem to be duds. I can’t actually pick any differences between these ones despite them being polycotyledonous (LOL). The one with three cotyledons is beside it. There’s no doubt about them being laevigata seedlings now as the most recent seedling to pop up still had the seed attached and it’s the same as the ones I photographed and uploaded to HMF; long, shrivelled, and kinda twisted and ugly looking (here: 'R. laevigata' Rose Photo). It seems interesting to me to note that these first few leaves are serrated, like any other rose seedling I’ve ever germinated, but I wonder if they will go more laevigata like as the mature leaves form… like wichurana and rugosa seedlings do? They seem nice and strong at the moment. They are growing in my lounge room next to an sunny window near the fire. They are getting a dilute feed each time I water them which is not very often now (in winter). Growth seems to be pretty steady but slow. There are four up now… a fifth one started to come up but has stalled before making it out of the seed.

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Close up of the ‘palm tree’:

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Apparently the Cherokee did sometimes make hips back in the early 19th century.

American Farmer 3(15): 120 (July 6, 1821)

CHEROKEE ROSE

Columbia, (S. C.) June 5th, 1821

John S. Skinner, esq.

DEAR SIR—On looking yesterday over the second volume of your very useful paper, the “American Farmer,” which I have received a few days since, I noticed the paper of the 2nd of June, 1820, a communication signed Charles P. Rowand, giving an account of a “New and beautiful species of Hedge.” I have not seen Mr. Rowand’s hedges; but I have heard of them, and I know that the plant it is made of, is most invaluable for this purpose. The common name is “Nondescript,” also “Cherokee Rose,” and its botanical name is “Rosa Laevigato,” not “Rosa Multiflora,” as Mr. R. has suggested. It is a native of the state of Georgia. I can send you a few of the hips of it if you wish. The raising it from the seed may be an advantage to the accustoming it to your climate. The “Rosa Multiflora” would, no doubt, make a beautiful hedge; but its thorns being much smaller than those of the other, it could not, so effectually, answer the desired object. If this error has not yet been corrected, it may not be unnecessary to do so. It is much to be wished, that the real botanical names, when they can be found out, be always used in publications relative to plants recommended, or mentioned for agricultural, medical or other useful purposes.— The want of such a name has caused many disappointments and discussions with regard to the Italian “Lupinella.” Whereas, if it had been mentioned by its botanical name “Hedysarum Onobrichis,” any person, by referring to a botanical book, could have learned that it is the Saint-foin.

N. Herbemont

Mr. Herbemont’s wife was also known in her day for breeding some roses, including Herbemont’s Musk Cluster.

“Fa’s Marbled Moss” produces a fair amount of seedlings like this, with several cotyledons and then a tiny plant which looks like it couldn’t be bothered to grow any stems. They never survive.

That’s my experience as well… these ones, however, just seem to be growing as though everything is normal… I can’t tell the difference between those that are normal and those that are not unless I count the cotyledons. It’s most unusual.

Really! Wow! I’d love to see pictures as the plants get older. Mine generally got to about two months, then just gave up.

It’s been only 8 days since the last photo… it’s been down to -5°C outside… inside sitting about 18-20°C. The growth in just 8 days is clear. The ‘palm tree’ seedling seems to have caught up with all the others despit being the last to germinate. There’s about a month between the first to germinate (the tricotyledon seedling) and the ‘palm tree’ seedling. The order of germination was the tricotyledon seedling → normal → normal → ‘palm tree’. Another seed has just stuck its head up too. The ‘palm tree’ seedling has over-taken the tricotyledo seedling seedling in height.

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Tonight… I am so VERY happy with these 4 little seedlings… every new set of leaves form are looking more and more laevigataish… and so very healthy. The biggest two are the dicotyledon seedlings.

Very nice photography there Simon! It will be fun to see how these develop.

Do I see that you’re growing mushrooms there too?!