Seedling ID in question

Hi again Cass.

I would also like to confirm that in addition to the lack of flower bracts that you point out, there is also a lack of hairiness/downiness on any of the flower parts or any of the wiry thin stems of this “seedling in question”.

I also agree very much that the sepals look very close to those of the china rose flower drawing shown in your link.

…and for that matter, also similar to the stipules of the flower bud you have posted, Simon, (this is what had me convinced that it was a china at that point).

Maybe you are all correct…

Maybe it is a (Clinophylla X Bracteata) X China?

All the 12 clinobracteata seeds were extremely uniform, there was no hint of any obvious irregularity between any of these clinobracteata seeds, I can just see them in my mind’s eye as I write this.

…or (R.clinophylla X R.bracteata) X R.gigantea, as Pierre alluded to many months ago?

Maybe it is (clino x bract) x China or Gigantea hybrid. The sepals are a bit odd for pure China. Any recollection what it smelled like? Chinas can have a very distinct, pleasant scent that reminds me of cherry candy. Gigantea also has long buds. Some of Robert Rippetoe’s Clinophylla hybrids had the same long, thin sepals with foliaceous margins.

Do you have enough of a plant grown out yet to show us the prickles? Are they straight and needlelike or little, fat and falcate ? Needlelike would be unusual for a China or a Gigantea, but I can check my Chinas and Hybrid Giganteas tomorrow.

R. gigantea from The Genus Rosa shows the usual nasty falcate prickles.


Hi again Cass.

The flower fragrance is not distinctive, it is faint, and hints of ?sweetness/basil. If I can identify a clearer fragrance I’ll mention it here, in time to come.

I am still calling it a completely smooth rose, only very recently have I even spotted tiny tiny soft burgundy prickles which really need a magnifying glass to check out.

The stems are very thin and wiry, the growth is very low and bushy, with basal outgrowths and a lot of branching. Overall, it currently has a low bushy architecture. This could change with age, we have to wait and see I guess. This is why I was wondering if it could be some dwarf clinobracteata X china/giganea.

I hope the following pictures give more meaningful information to help with the ID:

In this picture, the stipules on the leaf to the right are from one of my (R.clinophylla) X OP. I hope this is the triangular pattern you are expecting Cass?!..the stipules on the leaf to the left are from the “seedling in question”, and are simple and totally different by comparison:

This picture shows the stipules from a leaf of my (R.clinophylla X R.bracteata) X OP seedlings, and also shows a resemblance to the trinagular-type clinophylla stipuling Cass was referring to (I think?!):

Here the five leaftlet leaf belongs to the “seedling in question”, whilst the 9 leaflet leaf belongs to one of my (R.clinophylla) X OP. The “seedling in question” is now starting to put out some 5-leaflet leaves on more advanced stems…as a younger plant nearly all leaves were 3-leaflet types:

Here the leaflet on the left is the apical leaflet from (R.clinophylla) X OP which was shown just above here. The leaflet on the right is the apical leaflet from the leaf of the “seedling in question” which was shown just above here:

Here the leaflet on the left belongs to (R.clinophylla) X OP. The leaflet on the right belongs to the “seedling in question”:


LOL one thing that does match is their deep green color!

The texture/feel of both leaves is somewhat similar, and both wilted very quickly in a very similar manner. Does this mean anything?

Something I’d forgotten: quite a few Chinas are almost thornless, and that is the description of “The 10,000 Camellias Red China.” I have at least three almost thornless Chinas. None of the 9 or 10 Chinas (including possible minimas) has prickles on the flowering wood. Check the basals. Sometimes the flowering wood is smooth, but the basals have prickles or different armature. It would be interesting if the thornlessness of the China overcame the armature of clinophylla x bracteata.

Long, thin leaflets are typical of some Chinas, while others have foliage just like the Teas.

Ok Cass, thanks for that important observation.

In Summary then:

When I emailed Viru and Girija that this was identified as a ten thousand camellia red china rose, Viru still advised me to carefully check the dried pollen for hints of acetone, as that bit of information had not been worked out either way at that time (he uses this as one marker for clinophylla inheritance). Viru advised this, becasuse they were reminded of clinophylla in some aspects of some of the leaves, and some aspects of the flower pictures posted in this discussion. This is also consistent with the 12 very uniform looking clinobracteata seeds it grew out from (uniform achene size, texture, color, gloss factor, and then upon extraction-uniform embryo look/behaviour).

Pollen so far has been scant and so I have not been able to ascertain any fragrance from it, yet. I HAVE tried. I am hoping that more pollen and better quality pollen may be produced as we progress into our new growing season, and the plant builds up strength, in the months ahead. Pollen fragrance from my other clinobracteata / clinophylla seedlings will act as a great reference marker for the scent Viru is talking about, and there will be little doubt in picking up a similar scent if it is there, once these other seedlings also come into flower (who knows when).

I think the next step is to wait for other vital clues to emerge, then report these to Viru, for his conclusion.