That’s a great question Simon. I have used rugosas successfully as primarily as females too. It seems like when I try to use it as a pollen parent on other classes of roses the seed set is low to nonexistent and germination is low too. I eventually steered towards using them primarily as females. The last several years I haven’t crossed with them and think I should try again. I haven’t had the space to raise out rugosa seedlings just thinking of their extended juvenility before they start blooming. Many of the seedlings from these wide crosses tend to be weak too, but periodically there are some vigorous ones that are nice.
David
Simon,
I used four Rugosas this year as seed parents. I used one as a pollen parent. I got mixed results with how well the crosses took. Darts Dash was very picky about which pollen it accepted, Honey Sweet and Bonica failed, but J5 took. Blanc de Double Courbet was somewhat selective in that not all of the attempts with my Morden Centennial OP took, but some did. None of the Therese Bugnet x Morden Centennial OP crosses took either. Showy Pavement is a very willing parent, Orden, J5 and R.blanda all took with large numbers of seeds in each hip. I also used Therese Bugnet pollen on Champlain with only one hip forming without any seeds in it. The Showy Pavement seeds have germinated well with between 25 % to 35 % germinating. The germination rate of Darts Dash x J5 is about 20% so far. BdDC x Morden Cenntenial OP germination rate has been pretty low so far.
Because Rugosas set so many seeds per hip it was an easy choice to use them as the seed parent. As I found out it does make a difference which one you use though. Also it is best to use the higher ploidy as the pollen parent. So if one is crossing a Rugosa with a tetraploid, use the tetraploid as the pollen parent. My attempts with diploid pollen (Therese Bugnet) on a tetraploid (Champlain) failed.
Paul
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Simon,
I forgot to mention that I used Therese Bugnet pollen on R.glauca this past year. All of the attempts took and the seeds are just starting to germinate, so I’m not sure what kind of germination rate I’ll get. I’ll have to check these seedlings closely as the dog roses can set seed with being fertilized, so these may not be hybrids.
Paul
Thanks for all the replies. Up until recently I wouldn’t have asked this question… and then I started reading about all the aberant cases of things like dihaploid gametes etc so now don’t take anything for granted in rose and figure it’s better to ask than assume anything!!!
Of the crosses above some HAVE stood out as being far more ‘aggressive’ takes. The ones that surprised me the most was crossing with ‘Black Jade’, 'Gold Coin, and ‘Peace’. Every single application has been successful and the hips are bulging at the seams. I’m really looking forward to spring next season to see how they go. I read in the archives Paul Barden saying that many of these types of crosses also experience greatly compromised disease resistance… then I was reading that some people are using them in wide crosses like this hoping that the species hardiness would compensate for the weaknesses in the pollen parents and that there would be a drop in resistance compared with the species but the disease resistance of the resulting seedlings would be a significant improvement to that of the pollen parent… so I don’t really have any expectations… I’m wondering about the sense in doing some of these crosses in terms of long term goals and fertility issues. I’m starting to think now that most the seedlings will be triploids and so may not be overly useful for further breeding. Then started thinking well… lots of people use triploids so if I choose BIG pollen producers as parents with any luck this trait will combine with the massive pollen producing ability of the rugosa and the more pollen that is produced the more likely at least some pollen will be good… and so have gone that way in the hope that I can not so much expect one-cross wonders but a step along the way… Anyway… must be off to work…
For me the Showy Pavement was the stand out. Both the crosses with J5 and R.blanda produced over 80 seeds per hip. But tying into what David said, the seeds of SP x J5 didn’t germinate as well and most of the seedlings are small and week. Whereas the seeds of SP x R.blanda germinated better, in fact I had too many and gave some to David. The seedlings are larger and stronger also. This doesn’t surprise me as R.blanda is a diploid like SP. Also R.blanda and R.rugosa are in the same section so they are closely related.
I guess I don’t know what to expect for disease resistance in these seedlings. Anytime you make wide crosses you’re going to get a whole range of characteristics. If you cross a disease resistant diploid with a less resistant tetraploid, then the triploid offspring will only have one gene for good disease resistance and two for not so good resistance. So I would expect them to be only slightly better than the tetraploid parent. I have Moores Striped Rugosa, which is listed as
I would LOVE to see a diploid hybrid in the color range of Lagerfeld/Sterling Silver.Stainless Steel/Sweetness, etc. I am not sure if is possible because of the complexity of this color range, but I can always hope it is.
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Paul
Speaking of rugosa x modern tetraploid cvs, you wrote:
“So I would expect them to be only slightly better than the tetraploid parent.”
From experience: my seedlings as well as introduced vars I bought, it is :
one can expect the best seedlings to be stronger and healthier than is to be expected from the average tetraploid progeny one can get from this parent. That is far less than rugosa. And the best from the best to have an acceptable plant architecture that is enough flowers on a not too much large plant.
For those looking for dominance: desease succeptibility is quite dominant as is bad plant architecture in species diploid x modern tetraploid crosses …
Resistant species x another resistant species F1 seedlings are much more reliable. Particularly when at the diploid level. F2 and further are quite varied with some a lot worse and some a little better than expected.
What you will get from rugosa is some quite nice leaves. If desease free they are larger, darker and glossier than expected.
‘Scabrosa’ has pretty good architecture here… a nice rounded lowish shape. The only complaints I have with it are that the upper middle leaves tend to burn a bit in the heat and the papery thin petals don’t last very long in the heat either.
After a few crosses with ‘Scabrosa’ using tetrapolids (minis and HT) I started thinking I was better to use diploids so went looking for what I had. I put ‘The Fairy’ and ‘Baby Faraux’ on because they are diploid (I’m assuming ‘Baby Faraux’ is diploid given ‘Red Ballerina’ is listed on HMF as being diploid and the article on ploidy on Paul Barden’s website states most polyantha are diploids) but there crosses are still too young to call. Then Golden Chersonese put out a single very late flower so I put pollen from that on as well assumming it is also diploid (and I’d really like to have a go at breeding some yellow rugosa). I like the idea of putting polyantha with the rugosa because they are remonatant and flower in clusters and ‘Scabrosa’ is remontant so with any luck I’ll get some remontant seedlings if they take.
If the flower carpet roses are triploids, as the original pink one is (according to HMF), then if I get any successful takes from this I can expect either diploids or more triploids when put with a diploid can’t I?
Hi Simon,
‘Baby Faraux’ is diploid, I checked it. Years ago I tried to recreate the Grootendorst roses by crossing rugosas and polyanthas. I got a lot of seedlings, but a lot of genetic weaknesses. Out of the thousands of germinating seedlings just a handful matured well enough to nice flowering plants. Most are sterile and couple had double serrated edges like the Grootendorst roses. One does set some hips!!! The five petalled flowers are gappy and cupped and not too attractive. I keep trying to germinate seeds from it. Germination is low and the seedlings are kind of awkward and I eventually lost them all in past years so far. There are some new ones I’m hopeful for that are just a couple inches tall now. Hopefully this “ugly duckling” parent will be a link to some beautiful swans someday.
Sincerely,
David
Thanks Pierre,
Your observations have confirmed my suspicions. As always, it is best to breed the best with the best. If you use a disease susceptible plant in your breeding program, then you
Are we all talking about the Sequoia Nurseries version of
There are two versions. One is that other purple poly, I forget the name. I have the real one. It came from Hortico, I believe. they may have gotten their stock from England
I believe Raymond Privat is the other Polyantha sometimes sold as Baby Faurax. See link.
Mark
Link: www.helpmefind.com/plant/pics.php?l=2.24938&nr=34839
And isn’t Violetta almost the same too?
I don’t know which one mine is. It could be anything over here really.
Baby Faurax is decidedly smaller, more compact and slightly more double. It is pretty much the smallest polyantha I have yet to see. Also, the stems are much smoother.
Any success using Mrs. Doreen Pike as parent both ways?
Listed as an Austin shrub, the foliage and shape is very rugose; a cross from Martin Frobisher x Roseraie de l’Hay.
Link: helpmefind.com/plant/pl.php?n=4307