Look how dominant the prickles are several generations beyond the Madame Norbert Levavasseur line in this red floribunda.
Andre, it’s a good question!
In theory, the combination of diploid Polyantha and diploid Rugosa should yield some interesting results. I think it is definitely worth a try with some of the newer Polyanthas you have mentioned. I have tried some crosses on Rugosas with Candy Oh! as the pollen parent and got a few germinations. The seedlings lack vigor but I am nursing them along just to see what becomes of them.
As much as I am a fan of Rugosas I have never been able to muster much affection for the Grootendorsts, but that’s merely because of the lack of fragrance. Otherwise I can definitely see the appeal. I have tried Signe Relander, which is a cross between a Rugosa and Orleans Rose with the same sort of fringed little carnation bloom. It, in contrast to the Grootendorsts, is supposed to be fragrant but I can never detect any fragrance. It also (so far) seems to have sterile pollen and it does not set hips. The color is a true red which stands out like a sore thumb among my other Rugosas. David Austin attributes fringed flowers in Rugosa hybrids to a genetic breakdown when genes from the Rugosa and non-Rugosa parents don’t fully combine.
Based on the known Rugosa hybrids with Polyantha in their background, you can probably expect interesting flowers, possibly fringed, in larger clusters than the typical Rugosa; horrific thorns; reduced disease resistance; very low fertility possibly combined with a tendency to sporting.
Therese Bugnet as a seed parent will often accept ‘foreign’ pollens that other Rugosas will not.
Betsy
Minnesota zone 4
I will try Adelaide Hoodless one more year with my diploid. It just seems to give much better healthier larger flowered progeny. I would already had more luck if I did not loose all my seedlings of it. I had 6 but lost them all to damp off. it was my first year without No-Damp and it was devastating. Luckily I found a supplier that sold the chemicals to synthesize the active ingredient. At the rate I use it my supply will last at least 20years all for 6 bucks plus isopropyl alc. The chemistry is simple but one does need a a good scale to measure if one wants to use only small amounts. I think that he can only ship to Canada.
I guess my next follow up question should be which class would be better off as pollen donor and which as the seed. Or does it not much matter with these two groups.
The polyantha I would really like to try to work with that I have is Anda. Unfortunately I don’t seem to be able to get either seeds or pollen out of it. Any one have any luck with it as a breeder. It is a great garden plant - I had a truss of over 100 blooms on it last year and it stays below 2 feet high and wide here.
The grootendorst series are interesting to some degree, but they never caught my attention. I remember planting them for some one a long time back and not being too impressed with them. I still am not all that glamored by them. I do like the fringes though. But that was when I was in my “roses should only look like HTs” phase. I didn’t really appreciate things like plant structure, health, cold hardiness, etc.
Kim, I dunno about the “No, Why” rose name. I’m thinking maybe the “Candy, No!” series.
I have no intelligent thoughts on which way to cross two diploids if they are both equally receptive. On the other hand, I’m not sure but what I’d prefer to harvest seeds from a poly hip though…
The problem with fringed flowers is that they tend to be smaller and have less impact. Seratipetalla once sported back to a cramoisi-like china, and it occurred to me just how much that serrated petal novelty cost the flower in terms of over-all bloom-volume. Also, I wouldn’t count on that being a trait you could hope for in a cross… I think in a thread years ago I asked about scalloped or fringed petals, and I think the consensus was that one could NOT hope to plan any crosses leading to such. (Can others confirm or refute that?)
Hope I am not hijacking this thread. Phil years agao I discovered this rose called Smooth Buttercup, thornless and having this flick in the petals. I have used it numerous times as a source of creating thornless roses but also passing this petal flick along to its offspring. Its quite interesting having this flick compared with a straight lined petal edge. The offspring are pretty healthy as well.
Here are two of my seedlings which have this petal flick.
[attachment 1572 PLANETEARTH.jpg]
[attachment 1573 VANILLASKIES.jpg]
[attachment 1574 VANILLASKIES2.jpg] The blooming ability comes from Wendy (Schuurman)
Oh, Friesensonne does that.
Good to know. I have been intrigued by “oak-leaf” petals and fringed petals, but had been led to believe one could not really plan for such. I might revisit the idea then…
Thanks muchly for the corrections! I try to be careful about making strong assertions/statements on this forum for fear of misinforming (…thought on the other forum, I may not be so cautious… 
). Goodness knows that I have a lot less experience than so many here!
Another type of cross I was toying with is the rugosa X wichurana (thinking of Max Graf with this one). I do not have R. rugosa, just rugosa hybrids with the closest being Therese Bugnet and Hansa. For the R. wich. I have the thornless variety with Basye’s name attached (cuttings from Kim) and a few OP seedlings that are clearly hybrids. I was wondering what the rugosa thorn issue would do if I combined it with a thornless variety of wichurana. I have never grown or seen Max Graf so I cannot attest to its thorniness, but I have always been intrigued by the variety. Having the issue of thorns brought up in this thread just reminded me of this cross.
Warren, I like the petal flick - it gives the bloom more character I think. There is so much to rose petals than just color it seems.
Andre try and get Frau Dagmar Hastrup. It is extremely fertile, sets massive hips full of viable seed. One year I got some selfs by accident and those seedlings flowered in the first year.
There is more to a rose bloom than a solid block colour, interest can be created by obtaining.
Multi coloured petals on the upper surface
A complete colour contrast on the reverse of petal.
Petal edge with a wavey formation
Petal edge with a flick
crumpled petal texture like crepe paper
All these can add great interest within the bloom.