Rugosa: Mrs. Doreen Pike...

Any results using this rugosa for fertility and quality of seedlings?

Apart from its stellar beauty, is it winter hardy in zones 4 & 5, and would it be a reasonable choice for breeding hardiness and disease resistance?

Is the parentage provided on HMF genuinely true?

Link: helpmefind.com/plant/pl.php?n=4307

"Is the parentage provided on HMF genuinely true? "

Do you have reason to suspect its not?

Dee,

Since the flowers are so double, it’s likely sterile both ways. The shrub is likely cold hardy to Zone 3. And there’s no reason to doubt that the parentage given is not correct. In my limited experience crossing ‘Martin Frobisher’ with 'Hansa, the progeny had very double flowers. In fact, so double the flowers were ugly and thus the selections were discarded. It seems there is some genetic incompatibility when crossing ‘Martin Frobisher’ with other Rugosa cultivars, and that is why the progeny can have very double flowers.

Dee,

According to David

I think Jens Munk has a lot of potential.

Dee,

As Paul reported, ‘Martin Frobisher’ is prone to blackspot in warmer/more humid climates than the Canadian Prairies and, for example, North Dakota in the States. The lack of disease resistance in ‘Martin Frobisher’ likely comes from ‘Betty Bland’ or ‘Therese Bugnet’. One of these cultivars is likely the staminate parent of ‘Martin Frobisher’. The ultimate culprit causing the lack of disease resistance in ‘Martin Frobisher’ is Rosa blanda, which, of course, is in the parentage of ‘Betty Bland’ and in the pedigree of ‘Therese Bugnet’.

In my opinion, when breeding Rugosas there are only three cultivars necessary to work with to obtain the maximum range of results. Of these, as Dr. Svejda has proven (especially her development of ‘Jens Munk’), the most valuable is ‘Schneezwerg’. These cultivars are:

  1. Fru Dagmar Hastrup

  2. Hansa

  3. Schneezwerg

So try a ‘Schneezwerg’ x ‘Martin Frobisher’ cross and see what happens. (‘Schneezwerg’ seeds are very small. I would plant them directly into a container or in the garden).

This another Martin Frobisher based cross that worked out well. I tried to get it introduced commercially but???

http://picasaweb.google.com/HAKuska/RosePictures#5091602119644994226

Link: picasaweb.google.com/HAKuska/RosePictures#5091602119644994226

Henry, of those dozens of photos, which is the seedling you are talking about, and why was it rejected for commercial introduction? You appear to have some very attractive plants there. I can see no reason why you couldn’t get them into commerce if you approach the right person(s).

Paul

That’s a great landscape plant you got there, Henry, and very worthy of introduction.

There is a glowing ruby rose you list in the 13th row of your album (held up against a ruler) that got my attention. Is that an Illusion x William Baffin seedling? There is one further down the page acting more like a climber, though I’m not sure if these two are the same.

The Royal Edward seedling shrub is also a stunner.

Paul O - then it would be fair to say that Martin Frobisher may catch disease in that horrid reptilian weather happening in the Ottawa valley. I find that rugosa hybrids in general are confined to a limited spectrum of colors; white, pink, to hot magenta and purple. Is it not possible to achieve more pigments of yellow, peach, apricot, orange and pure reds in these roses?

Why do we not have any ruby reds on the market for rugosas to replace that all-so-common eye-splitting color of Hansa?

I find it interesting that Mr.Ralph Moore came up with a stipped rugosa.

Dee

I think you might change your mind about Hansa if you grew your own. Some of us find the colour particularly alluring.

Paul, I only get one picture with that link???

It is of (Martin Frobisher X OP) X Will Alderman.

It was not rejected, the company sent a short note that all 5 test plants died. No asking for additional plants, no other comments. Then (from what I hear from others), the company pulled out of roses.

Henry,

The first time I went to that link I got a page displaying many photos. The second time I went, I got the one specific rose. No idea why that happened.

Have you approached some of the smaller, more eclectic nurseries, Henry? I would suggest you contact Janet Inada at Rogue Valley Roses and see if she’d be interested in that rose. In fact, I’d send her two or three of your best and let her evaluate them.

Paul

Dee,

I wasn’t trying to be facetious, I was just asking :wink:

I would be cautious about using a rose like ‘Mrs Doreen Pike’ because it is SO double, and sometimes the resulting seedlings are even MORE double, making them unusable. I have an F2 ‘Will Alderman’ seedling here that I like a lot and I’d be more inclined to work with ‘Will Alderman’ or ‘Schneezwerg’ for that kind of breeding.

Paul B.

Henry,

Can you tell us what we are looking at in the following photo, please?

Link: picasaweb.google.com/HAKuska/RosePictures#5091601685853296482

Lydia, you’re full of surprises! My memory is sharp to recall an old and distinct e-mail from you way back stating the exact opposite of what you say above…an affirmation that Hansa is “boring”. I may even have printed it out somewhere. The reason I remember this comment unmistakably is because I was in agreement with you. In fact, it’s in the last little while that you’ve spoken very differently of Hansa, which I admit surprised me. I wanted to call you up on that, by the way, but waved it because of insignificance. Funny that it’s brought up here.

Perhaps your tastes, recollections or experiences have changed??

At this stage of my learning experience, information is retained like a sponge. I pick up on human statements and inconsistencies quite readily, including those that stem over long periods of time, so it stands to reason I singled this one out.

As you say, I may very well change my mind; though I see enough of Hansa at work that is apathetic. Yes, some of you may be allured…or rightfully turned on…but in my opinion there’s nothing dainty nor romantic about the looks of the majority of rugosas, aside from Henry’s here, who may just have succeeded to convince me otherwise.

Paul, thanks for the suggestion for a possible commercial nursery.

The picture you asked about should have a caption. I will have to see what happened to the captions. See:

http://home.roadrunner.com/~kuska/R.acicularisnipponensis.htm

Link: home.roadrunner.com/~kuska/R.acicularisnipponensis.htm

Dee,

“Is it not possible to achieve more pigments of yellow, peach, apricot, orange and pure reds in these roses?”

“Why do we not have any ruby reds on the market for rugosas to replace that all-so-common eye-splitting color of Hansa?”

You have zeroed in on the next important stage of the development of Rugosa roses. The answer is yes, but likely at the cost of less disease resistance. But in order to obtain good repeat bloom, unless one has the patience to develop F2 hybrids, the goal for achieving these colours in cold (Zone 3) climates should be developing crown hardy rather than totally hardy shrubs.

Crown hardy Rugosa cultivars (eg. ‘Linda Campbell’, ‘The Hunter’) having a pure red colour that bloom on new wood perform quite well in Zone 3 climates and should be grown much more than they are. Therefore, there should be much more emphasis in developing this type of Rugosa for cold (Zone 3)climates. I’ve began working on it by crossing Rosa rugosa rubra with ‘George Vancouver’.

Another strategy I’ve taken to potentially develop pure red Rugosas cold hardy to Zone 3 is to cross ‘Hansa’ with Rose moyesii ‘Geranium’. I have a few selections of this hybrid that should bloom within a year or two. The resulting progeny should be tetraploid, so it will be a new adventure working with Rugosas at this ploidy level.

‘Hansa’ is still a very important rose grown in cold (Zone 2 or 3) climates. I look forward to seeing it every year and never get tired looking at the flowers.

“You have zeroed in on the next important stage of the development of Rugosa roses. The answer is yes, but likely at the cost of less disease resistance. But in order to obtain good repeat bloom, unless one has the patience to develop F2 hybrids, the goal for achieving these colours in cold (Zone 3) climates should be developing crown hardy rather than totally hardy shrubs.”

How much is winter hardiness compromised by using a different source of yellow to the traditional R. foetida (or it’s hybrids) when used with rugosa (or it’s hybrids)? I tried ‘Golden Chersonese’ on it this year (and it didn’t take) but was looking at R. primula, xanthina, and ecae too… I note that foetida is stated to be hardy to zone 3a on HMF and that the others are rated to 6a. Or R. spinossima… it’s got a creamy yellow/white colour in some specimens on HMF.

Does anyone else have experience with Will Alderman? It appears to me to be a good choice for introducing rugosa characteristics without having to start at ground zero.

My intentions were not to offend or annoy anyone here who holds special feelings for Hansa, and I recant my opinions if I have done so. I don’t dislike the rose entirely, yet the plant as a whole weighs a little heavy for my taste. There is no dispute against its virtuous fragrance and ability to thrive in very cold climates. Significant as it is for that purpose, its popularity tends to overshadow other available selections, and as consequence, I found myself having to recruit further orders for Hunter and Linda Campbell (at our nursery) to satisfy preferences for red rugosas; they sell out over Hansa.

Paul B - My thanks for expressing your views on Mrs. Doreen Pike. It was recommended to me by Ms. Lydia, and not necessarily out of my need for hybridization, but rather from a profound awareness of the struggle I face aiming to select a meaningful rugosa that may suit the challenges of a new location. Surprisingly enough, I do invite the charm and simplicity of Fru Dagmar Hastrup.

Paul O - Could you please explain how you expect the resulting seedlings be tetraploid from crossing Hansa x r. moyesii ‘Geranium’? What is the ploidy of the ‘Geranium’ hybrid?

Henry - Is this the natural habit & shape of your (Martin Frobisher x O/P) x Will Alderman rugosa or do you prune it to maintain that compact appearance?