Any of the above could be correct. Species roses are not always static in biology.
Rob Byrnes, i have the list on my private googledocs.
I’ll make a new googledoc and i’ll mail the logindata to everyone who can contribute to the list. I won’t put the logindata on the board for safety reasons. You receive the pass and the loginname as soon as possible.
Regards,
Timothy
Rod I wondered the same thing on a couple of roses. The other day I was reading an oxford journal at the CSU library arcive and it seems that R. pisocarpa has three different ploidy. The one with 14 seems to be the most common. The work also answered my question on R. pendulina which I found multiple ploidy for also. It seems both these roses have naturally have a variety of different ploidies. I wounder what messes with them when they are going through their sexual divisions. I want to now find out if the triploid of Bonica really assist. I know for a fact that the tetraploid assist because I have seen it but I have found references to a triploid. So if anyone has a triploid of this rose or knows it assist I’d like to find out. Thanks.
Hi Adam,
I have assessed two different own-root plants of ‘Bonica’ and found them clearly triploid. They were not grafted and I assessed root tips and counted 21 chromosomes over multiple cells. ‘Royal Bonica’ is its sport and it was triploid as well. The ‘Bonica’ I assessed were plants distributed by Bailey Nurseries. It does set seed pretty well for a triploid. That is not uncommon. Other triploids are good seed setters as well (like ‘Golden Angel’). I would like to get a tetraploid version of ‘Bonica’. I know Leen Leus assessed ‘Bonica’ looking at overall DNA content per nucleus and determined it was tetraploid. I never mastered flow cytometry (we had an old machine and never got it working right, that is why I invested so much in improving my cytology skills). I read that the DNA content can be variable and sometimes overlap a bit over ploidy levels. I would love to get a plant of a ‘Bonica’ that was determined to be 4x by flow cytometry and do a chromosome count to compare.
Sincerely,
David
I guess I am going to have to take my Bonica to the schools lab. I was assuming tht since it set seed so well it had to be a tetraploid. I got hundred of hips off of it. And their still more on it that I decided not to evenharvest due to space issues for seedlings. If it turn out to be a tetraploid I will send you bud wood if you want.
For checking the ploidy of species roses, everyone can check the IPCN (Index of Plant Chromosome Numbers) maintained by the Missouri Botanical Garden. The link is below. It’s a little cumbersome, but once you finally reach Rosa, at least you have a reference to the original source material, which is only a handful of articles. R. pisocarpa is not listed, btw, and our list is more current and complete. The list has some typos and includes some synonyms, probably because that is how the plants were labeled in botanical collections. The synonyns are easy to sort out using the IOPI search engine at http://www.bgbm.org/IOPI/GPC/query.asp
FWIW, American researchers Erlanson and Joly, Starr, Lewis & Bruneau show R. pisocarpa as diploid. I harbor concerns about the accuracy of the identification of plants used for genetic testing, a concern voiced by Joly et al. The labeling of species (and other) roses in botanical collections everywhere is problematic. To add to the confusion, I’ve been told by one biologist that the western North American species roses are suspected both of freely intergrading with one another and of colonizing the region more than once, leaving relict colonies. The upshot is that identifications are not straightforward.
This is a great paper thanks.
Diploids
Agliana
Alba Meidiland
Alb
Thanks!
I’haven’t got internet at home so next week I’ll put them on the list.
Jinks thats a pretty big list of diploids. I was jst wondering what the asstricts mean by some of the names.
Hmm, how sure is this list, Jinks? Because I see some roses in the diploid list that would most likely be triploid e.g. (Alberic Barbier and other wichurana ramblers) or tetraploid (e.g. Constance Spry)?
Rob
Dinks, Thank you for the info I will make sure I save this!
Cass,
Great link! Thank You Very Much
Only as sure as the reference material. I must admit that Constance Spry was a surprise to me but looking at the parentage it is possible. most come from Modern roses XI some from cytology carried out by forum members and other Internet sources. as for the two mentiond.
Alberic Barbier, Ref: Modern roses XI, page 6, listed (14)
Constance Spry, Ref: Resistance Breeding For Powdery Mildew And Black Spot, PHD Leen Leus, Page 110, Chapter 5, Breeding Through Interploidy Crosses, Table 5.1 Ploidy levels in the DvP-rose collection, Diploid.
https://archive.ugent.be/handle/1854/4166
ttps://archive.ugent.be/retrieve/2345/PhDLeenLeus.pdf
Take care,
Jinks.
PS:
The astricts are next to roses that were on my want list, I added them when I first started the list.
Just some quick ideas on the spreadsheets that you’ve begun to share here…
You can all collaborate on the spreadsheet/s in a few ways…
1 - invite eachother by email address - that way only the specific people invited will be able to edit it.
2 - check the “Invitations may be used by anyone” option (on the ShARE tab) and, when someone receives the invitation, they can post it here - so that anyone may click on it and join the fun. That does open the spreadsheet to potential error and edits by people you might not want, but when they do join in, you’ll see them there and you can remove people you didn’t want.
3 - check the “anyone can view” option (on the SHARE tab) so that people can see the spreadsheet but not edit it. Then they can specifically request (here, or in the discuss tab) edit rights.
4 - PUBLISH it - which you’ve already done…
I’d also suggest combining all those spreadsheets into one - with each set of data made into a separate sheet in the same file.
Have fun!
Link: jrsays.com
THE list I been working on is in one data base. I have been doing it in my spare time. Mostly inbetween class work and on break at work. I have been goind through the olod forums compiling it and any scientific papers I find on the way I add to it. I planning to asking Paul, Jim, David or Erique to look over it after it to see if they see some gross errors when it is done because they seemed the most well informed. After this I plan on ofering it to who ever wants it. Right know the list is up to about 3 hundred roses.
If people would like access to the spreadsheets and contribute by editing the lists, you can mail me at ploidydatabase@hotmail.com
Put your name/nickname in the mail.
Hopefully I’ll get my i-net this week to make the spreadsheets compleet.
JR, thats information which i can use! I’ll look at it.
glad i could help… happy to help more if people want more…
Another interesting thing you can do is to embed the spreadsheet into a web page or blog post…
Look at the “more publishing options” on the PUBLISH tab (within the spreadsheet editor)… and use the “HTML to embed in a web page” format option…
ping me for help…
Also - hope you don’t mind, I posted these published spreadsheets on a blog which I started to help others find examples of Docs/Spreadsheets online…
Link: jrsays.com