Rose “Ploids” made easy by P Wright

Thoroughly enjoyed this RoseBulb archived 1964 Wright article on rose chromozones. Works for educating “ploids” newbies like moi.

Enjoyed the discussion on “china teas and gallica theory” and Hazeldean. Best take away for me was if l want a smoother start to hybridizing, begin with “like ploids count” divisible by 7 if l got it right :slight_smile:

To some extent, even if sticking to a ploid but breeding too dissimilar (ie rugosa x china) will have sterility issues for the most part.

Meanwhile plenty of triploids have some fertility or a lot (ie blue for you).

I would stick in ploid if dealing with a once bloomer though, no point breeding once bloomers that may not flower for years only to find out they are sterile potentially due to being triploids.

All that I know of roses are that 7 are the haploid plant. This is the base number. Two sets together have
Diploid 2x =14
Triploid 3x=21
Tetraploids 4n=28

In meiosis the count is halved and it fuses another gamete.

Diploid 14 +diploid 14= 28 chromosomes
The final count has to be divisible by2
Crossing a dip with a tetra ends up with 21 chromosomes is to not divisible by 2 thus infertile. A triploid.
There are exp aneuploids, and reduces gametes.
You want fertile progeny parent of the same number works easier.

Should read unreduced gamete.

Thank goodness for all of the wonderful fertile triploids which make crossing with the real oddities possible! There were no hybrids with R. Minutifolia until Jim Sproul’s L56-1, which definitely breeds like a fertile triploid. Ralph Moore’s Golden Angel, which begat Torch of Liberty, which begat my Lynnie, are all wonderfully fertile triploids. Mr. Moore’s Golden Horizon is another fertile triploid. They can produce such unusual, interesting results!

Sounds like ploids is an area that a newbie should strive for at least a touch of knowledge … if only to plan crosses with a basic chance of success from which to advance. I like the rolling dice variable aspect to the transfer even if one plans, as highlighted by Wright and thread inputs. Decided better get a “Modern Roses” copy to start finding basic ploid data for the OGRs and prairie natives and hybrids of, as spring clock ticking - order in.

Much of that information is on Help Me Find-Roses and should be visible to you as a basic site viewer. If you want to be able to research parentage, the Premium $24 a year membership is well worth it. And, being able to see living color photos (some of them even really pretty good!) is rather nice, too.

Txs for memory jog, renewed Premium a minute ago. Did “acquire in theory from Amazon” MR12 … supposedly at a chasm deep discount.

Congratulations! I learned SO much be simply reading MR 8 thirty-plus years ago. I began by looking up the roses I knew, then searching everything beginning with “blue”, then “gray” and “grey”, then on down the line for colors, then stripes and any other variegations I could think of. I followed the parentages back as far as possible and noticed connections. It was fascinating! Adding the color photos and references from HMF made it come alive. Then, adding Face Book and seeing photos from around the world from people unfamiliar with HMF, and asking them to please add their photos there, opened doors like crazy! I finally saw current photos of some of the weird Indian, radiation induced striped and color sports!

Thanks for the experience relays and map suggestions as its going to be help. Last couple of years l seemed to flaying around in pollinating … though did learn Simonet’s Dr Skinner and Suzanne seem to be incredible acceptors of pollen to hips… Haidee not working. Last just explodes and doesn’t even self. Compared to the radiation induced Haigth-Ashbyry 60’s tee shirt color pattern look, my goals, seems under whelming … keel over if l can get Z3, 6 foot plus climber, fully doubled, vivid colored, ever blooming, gallica - prairie parent hybrid (similiar to Nuit d Younge or Doorenbs colour). Ruth was a excellent start by either Skinner or Wright.

Long, long ago I was reading Luther Burbank: His Methods and Discoveries, and comparing some of what he did with the ploidies listed in The Chromosome Atlas by Darlington and Janaki-Ammal. I pretty quickly realized that Burbank would not have been able to accomplish quite so much if he fussed with chromosome counts. His Shasta Daisies were bred from species originating on three continents. Differences in chromosome numbers might be off-putting, but he accomplished the “impossible”. And he might not have attempted to breed stoneless prunes (hexaploid) when the original semi-stoneless plum was only a diploid.

Of course he had lots of projects going at the same time, so if some of them failed, he had plenty of others that could succeed.

I did MR 5. I went through the whole book marking the varieties that originated as sports (excluding the climbing sports, which are WAY too common). I then went back and wrote the variety and its sport-parent on a slip of paper. And then I arranged the slips according to the sport parent. E.g., all the Ophelia sports in one pile, Talisman sports in another. Phew!

This was all before I had a computer of my own. That would have saved a lot of time. I was taking a programming class, but I didn’t want to put all my notes on punch cards. Sheesh! That was really a long time ago.

Yes, Karl, it was a lot of work, but it TAUGHT you what you have used through today. And, it was FUN, wasn’t it?

There is another complication. Triploids are not all the same. 21 cannot be divided neatly in half, but sometime the game is like horse shoes where Close does count. So, if the triploid produces some pollen with 8 or 9 chromosomes you might get by. Those extra chromosomes may be lost as the embryos develop. But with 10 or 11, there is likely to be less success.

Oh, yeah! My independent researches have always been more satisfying than any paid work I’ve done. Sometimes fun, often frustrating and sometimes maddening. But I can’t give it up.

Completely understood!

I am sorry that I over simplified. I mean we could have an hour long talk on translocations.

In aneuploids one can loose extra chromosome regularly but one way to stop this is to have a gene that is essential for the plants survival. Any cell that looses the novel chromosome will die.

Karl txs for the sharing to the thread knowledge. And txs to BulbnRise group as the last few archive dives have been like finding Atlantis. With that in mind, attempting to do a site survival small token contribution leads into a Rod Serling twilight zone data download perpetual swirl icon … some might give up.