Do you have anything promising coming from your Basye’s Legacy seedlings Enrique?
Robert,
That
Paul, I think using R. glauca pollen on polyanthas is an ingenious idea regardless of whether resultant seedlings repeat or not.
You could certainly get repeat in the next generation.
Thanks Robert,
You
I thought of that, Robert, but I knew you were trying to get away from Rosa multiflora lineage, which most polyanthas and the like have.
It’s true, I’m not using much out of multiflora for my own purposes but for most of you I think the polys have much to offer. I’ve got too many tangents started as it is.
I’m working with descendants of R. helenae and R. filipes which are also part of the synstylae section, like multiflora.
It’s a different twist on a similar theme.
Anybody care to guess what ploidy pollen R. glauca x R. Pendulina hybrid might produce? Would it behave like R. glauca? Would it produce a mixture of ploidy types?
David? Any thoughts?
Rob,
I haven’t explored Queen Elizabeth X 77-361, but it is fertile.
At one point I did have seedlings of my seedling X Lynnie. But, the slugs ate them.
I have two other seedlings with Pacific Serenade. One has greyish foilage and needle sharp but widely spaced prickles. The other is completly smooth, but since it had been growing in a harsh environment (in the same pot of my Jacaranda tree seedling…) It hasn’t made any progress at all, but it’s disease resistant. It just requires me to give it a whole lot of care so that I can at least see the flowers.
I think the Queen Elizabeth has lots of potential even though it’s not nearly nice as Lynnie. If only it has somebody else who has time to work it with.
Frankly… I haven’t had enough time to pollinate. And this year, the gardener kept cutting all my hips even when I repeatedly told him. Whatever crosses I had with my seedling… they didn’t make it. But I wish that somebody else will work with it.
I do have another line of breeding of Basye’s Amphidiploid… It’s my “Abraham Basye” (code name for Abraham Darby X Basye’s Amphidiploid.) Unlike nearly all the first generation derivatives of 77-361… this is actually yellow. (Yellow, with a mauve-pink edge.)
I gave a rooted cutting to a member here… I don’t know how it went with him. I’ve actually propogated more under a soda bottle, so that I can start sharing…
Another derivative of Basye’s Amphi has R. kordesii as the mother plant. One plant bloomed this year and it was very much like a rugosa flower… single, and purplish mauve. Foilage not rugosa, but the thorns definately are… I have a sister seedling that’s been in a pot and is looking for a home.
Robert,
That is a very good question. I guess it depends on how much the Caninae meiosis has broken down. If the meiosis is still very simmilar to R.glauca then I would say that it is going to act like a triploid and you would get both (1n) and (2n) pollen. If the Caninae meiosis has started to break down and there is more pairing of the chromosomes, then I guess there would be mostly (2n) pollen, even though it is a pentaploid. But these are just guesses.
Most experts think that the albas arose from a R.caninae x R.gallica cross. The Caninae meiosis has been modified but not broken down completely as there are still two univalents, but they now have (2n) pollen. This spring David give me a seedling that is a George Vancouver x Alba semi-plena cross. I also have numerous hips from a Chuckles x Maidens Blush cross that I made this year. So they do produce viable pollen.
I wonder if you crossed the R.glauca x R.pendulina with tretaploid pollen if you would get something similar to an alba.
Paul
Your repeat Lyn Griffith x (glauca x pendulina) seedling is amazing Robert. I had a small repeat blooming yellow seedling of Rise N Shine x R. hugonis. It eventually died, but sure seemed like a true hybrid.
I agree that there must be some strange and unique meiotic events. I’ve read about after fertilization there can also be some somatic crossing over and rearrangements as well and maybe some of these odd seedlings that repeat bloom are the product of that and restabilization. From my potato work I had a strange seedling of a very wide potato cross that was triploid originally. As time went on there were some aneuploids from it and then then the most stable propagules were tetraploid. Maybe inbalance in genetic makeup led to this? Perhaps in some of these roses ploidy changes aren’t so much what is happening, but like you said Robert crossing over and maybe some of the crossing over can even be somatic after fertilization.
That is a great question about Caninae meiosis breakdown and expectations. I have been very surprised as I looked at some of my seedlings chromsome counts and pollen diameters. I have a cross of R. eglanteria x R. glauca that is 5x as expected, but very large pollen typical of pollen that is 3x! There is a 6x hybrid of R. eglanteria x Haidee that seems along the same lines of what you mentioned Paul about R. alba in that it produces 2x pollen. There is a 6x R. eglanteria hybrid as well that produces pollen the diameter expected for 3x pollen as if the Caninae meiosis broke down. It surprised me most that the pollen from the R. eg x R. glau cross wasn’t the diameter typical for just 1x pollen since they are both Caninae section species. I suppose we just need to characterize each hybrid.
I have a seedling that really surprises me in that it seems like it may have had two dads. It is tetraploid like the female parent and the two males in question. THe cross lists the male parent that is orange I use and it has the foliage and flower form and warm color of that parent. However, it has stipples and there is only one stippled male parent I used that same year. This hybrid has the extreme disease resistance transmitted by that stippled parent as well. Hmm I wonder if I had a bit of pollen from that stippled parent still on the brush. It seems strange, but I wonder if some very odd thing happened where two pollen grains fertilized that egg and there was some genomic rearrangement and/or just disgarding of chromosomes to bring it to the 4x level.
That’s really interesting too about the effect of warm temperatures on meiosis and your climate maybe being more conducive to meiotic abberations Robert.
Sincerely,
David
David,
it’s clear whatever is happening is not unique to my situation. As you’ve pointed out mysteries abound in regard to aberrations related to rose fertility.
I pointed out Kordes work with R. roxburghii earler but there are other documented examples as well.
My friend in NY has pointed out that we sometimes have to look very closely for signs of hybridity, especially in wide crosses. I personally believe some of these hybrids exhibit either partial hybridity or characteristics from one side of the cross are sometimes masked to a degree as to be nearly imperceptible.
As you’ve suggested, I believe ploidy has a tendency to stabilize even after fertilization. I’ve noted wide crosses seem to act confused and lack vigor. They either eventually die or stabilize after a time and eventually gain vigor.
There seems to be stabilzation by means of genetic reorganization occurring. This very clearly occurred in my first banksia hybrid.
This would make an excellent subject for doctoral thesis.
Even multiple fertilization doesn’t seem too far fetched.
When molecular biology came into vogue a couple of decades ago, transforming genes into plants was hard work. Some very clever Chinese scientists developed a method called the pollen tube pathway by which naked DNA placed on stigmas of fertilized plants ended up in the genome of the offspring, at quite a low frequency. For cotton resistance to a specific herbicide it was something 1/8000 seedlings from several thousand crosses. Double fertilization need not be more rare than this, and if only part of the genome is ending up incorporated by some sort of crossing over of chromosomes, the ploidy could stay the same. Or there might be an aneuploid, or just a small fragment of chromosome inserted. We know that lots of different inversions of chromosome fragments happens. In the last RHA newsletter I discussed the work on Roses in Eastern North America where there are many haplotypes, including lots of inversions, within a single species.
Apparently, another way to get new genes into plants is with “graft transformation”, see (for example):
Since we are talking about glauca hybrids again I thought I would post a photo taken this morning. This seedling, like the glauca hybrid Rob Byrnes is working with, derives from a seedling of Joan Monteith’s creation.
I’m still of the opinion it appears to be a repeat blooming hybrid.
I have added a foliage photo to the HMF webpage.
pretty 
Yes, it’s pretty but the growth habit is strange. I wouldn’t describe it as vigorous. Hopefully it will be fertile.
Not only a pretty bloom but the leaves look really healthy too. Very nice.
It’s a bit too feral in habit in my opinion. It grows mostly upright with few side branches and the blossoms are rather short lived, but thank you.
I have another repeat blooming seedling using R. glauca x R. pendulina a pollen parent.
I found it hard to believe, but after speaking to Joan Monteith, apparently she has had repeat blooming seedlings using this species cross as well.
This looks like a hybrid to me. Something unusual must be occurring during meiosis.
I have yet one more recurrent seedling using this pollen parent yet to flower from another seed parent.
Here is yet another first generation repeat flowering seedling bred from Joan Monteith’s R. glauca x R. pendulina seedlings as pollen parent.
Repeat is good, almost smooth, appears to set hips, little to no fragrance.
Any ideas as to how hardy this one might be?
Thanks, Robert
