Re: Wanna see something cool...

Simon,

this is very interesting.

Do You like to reveal your tomato pulp recipe?

Whenever I have tomato juice or something else in my fridge, a week later there is mildew or mold growing.

Where did You place your seeds inside the pulp?

Hey, April is far away, but for all that a joke?

Rene

“Hey, April is far away, but for all that a joke?”

What do you mean by this?

There is no recipe… I scooped the pulp out out of a tomato, added a bit of water, then put the rose seeds straight in and left it in a shady place outside for 2-3 weeks where any smell wouldn’t get me in the doghouse.

Simon,

April 1st is called April Fool’s Day in the USA and traditionally people will make outrageous statements or jokes and then say April Fools when the other party believes the statement. You can ponder this next time you cohabit with the dog, ROFLOL.

Rene,

Its the same principle when one saves tomato seeds. You scrape out the seeds with attached pulp in a jar and add a little water. Swirl and let sit for a few days. You will notice some gray mold starting up. After a few days, shake, rinse and the seeds are clean. Then dry and package for next years sowing. Simon’s version is “fortified” since he doesn’t add water, used lots of pulp and skins, and keeps it ‘brewing’ longer. I should think rotting tomatoes, mashed would be a good starter.

Jim

we don’t have to wait for the 1st April, can go ahead, assuming, that a mixture of Yoghurt and Kefir (unheated) will also be a great stuff. There are a lot of ideas for further examining.

Simon, did you notice the pH value of the pulp while the digestion time

…or taste the ready mix ? :slight_smile:

cheers

Bernhard

Some further question on this that we could experiment with. Some of these you could probably answer now Simon, others may take a new experiment for somebody to answer. You certainly got my little scientific brain questioning.

How was overall germination rates affected?

Did any of the Don Juan seeds germinate?

If you did this with easy to sprout seeds what would be the affect? (not that you would need too just curious)

How did you get all the tomato seeds out of the pulp?

If you used a less acidic tomato say the crappy ones from the store would this still work?

Does seed treated this way even need to be stratified?

On some of the older varieties of yellows (do not know about the newer ones)and other roses such as some of the species; that the bulk of the germination occur in year two or three does this provide a method for getting the bulk of seeds to germinate the first year?

Oh by the way this is very interesting Simon. I will have to try it some time myself. Thanks for sharing.

I know what April Fool’s day is… which is why I questioned it… I’m not trying to fool anyone and don’t see any of my claims as being outrageous…

This is what I did:

I scraped the pulp out of one tomato and mixed it with a little water. I knew it would ferment because, as was mentioned above, anyone who saves tomato seeds knows this is how you prepare them for storage and germination. I also knew from reading other sources that the fermentation of tomato seed pulp by various microorganisms results in the production of various enzymes such as pectinases, lipases and cellulases. There was some discussion on here a while back about the nature and composition of the matrix holding the two halves of the achene together and some were saying cellulose and others pectin etc. Henry has done experiments with various ‘digesters’ with positive results. So I thought why not try a fermenting process to model chemcial scarification as would occur if the seeds were ingetsed or if microbial action in the soil ‘digested’ the outer coating of the seed.

In the first experiment 50 seeds were treated and 50 were not. Both lots were stratified for 6 weeks exactly in the fridge in two bags of moist peat. These seeds were OP ‘Westerland’ seeds. Of the 50 in the control group only 2 have germinated. In the pulp-treated seeds 22 have germinated so far and they are still germinating. That’s 4%:44%. These small smaple sizes do not represent statistically significant numbers. In the next experiment I left the Don Juan seeds in an extra week to see what would happen. You can see the results above. The have been put into stratification now and I will let you know how well they germinate. I will do more research on this to understand better why I am seeing what I am seeing but to be honest the last thing I expected from people on here is the suggestion of trying to make a fool out of anyone.

Adam, to answer you questions:

How was overall germination rates affected? 2/50:22/50; control:treated

Did any of the Don Juan seeds germinate? Just stratified… TBA

If you did this with easy to sprout seeds what would be the affect? (not that you would need too just curious) … been thinking about this myself which is why I’ve only been using those big hard woody seeds so far that I seem to have so much trouble with.

How did you get all the tomato seeds out of the pulp? I didn’t. The tomato seed’s gelatinous coating may be important because it contains substances that inhibit the germination of the tomato seed… so it may be an important subtrate in the fermentation or enzyme mediated processes.

If you used a less acidic tomato say the crappy ones from the store would this still work? I don’t believe it is the acidity of the pulp but the fermentation process that causes the outer coating of the seed to be digetsed. The pH may be important in creating the required conditions and/or preventing contamination but I don’t think it is the acidic nature of the pulp that causes the scarification.

Does seed treated this way even need to be stratified? Good question and one I want to test myself. My feeling is that they probaly won’t need stratification (or that this is dependent on how long they are fermented for… maybe there is an optimum fermentation time), though I haven’t tested this. I’m thinking that as more of the coating is digested the more rapid leaching occurs and because the seeds are in an aqueous environment leaching will be even more efficient. I have one batch of seeds left that haven’t been stratified from last season so will set them up this evening to test this. Only trouble is the seeds are from an unknown variety (so they might be easily germinated seeds etc).

On some of the older varieties of yellows (do not know about the newer ones)and other roses such as some of the species; that the bulk of the germination occur in year two or three does this provide a method for getting the bulk of seeds to germinate the first year? Gigantea seeds would be good to try this way as these seeds are like rocks and take forever to germinate on their own. WOn’t have any gigantea seeds till later in the season to try myself.

Thank you Simon for all the explanations on your experiment. I look forward to trying this in the summer of 2011 when I will have homegrown tomatoes to use (the canned tomatoes have been heat treated and just wonder if that might reduce their potency- of course the bacteria that do the fermenting might be floating around in the air anyway like yeasts for bread and yogurt.

I would NEVER assume you would be anything but serious about your roses and other pastimes-you are too passionate about them. When you ARE JOKING, it is very clear to everyone and the humor is appreciated.I always think of you as a kindred soul.

I guess I fully didn’t correctly understand your reply concernng April 1st and thought you might not have that ‘cultural’ usage in Australia- the old teacher in me trying to educate, LOL.

Keep up your digging and your delving into unknown territories; we are all the richer for it. However, take time to smell the flowers and watch some Chicken TV to relieve the stress. (That’s a term I saw used on a Chicken Forum years ago and loved it- they are fun to watch and their behaviour and interactions are amusing).

Jim

Simon this was something I thought about awhile ago of doing myself. I read it in a seed saver heirloom vegetable book. So when I read this I did not question that it worked. I think the April fools thing came in when Rene was commenting on V8 or some other vegetable juice have rotted in the fridge. I think it has nothing to do with the actual experiment.

I will still have to try this. I first need more room for this. I do not think my small space is the place for such things. Plus the raccoons could make a mess.

I think this is wonderful! I have so many seeds that I have to clean that I really don’t want to…it takes so long, but by seeing your pics above it seems to be a great time saver for me…Thank you Simon, I am going to try this right away.

Adam got it to the point.

I did a web search on ‘tomato pulp’.

In my country it is from tomato, salt, oil and garlic and at the supermarket there are some products we use to make sauce for noodles or pizza, they are called ‘tomato pulp’ too.

Because these pulps are very soon molding, I could not really believe that I should put my valuable rose seeds into.

Simon, I am sorry having disturbed this very interesting thread.

Thanks for your comprehensive documentation.

I would like to test it on my side.

Regards

Ren

Has anyone tried the ‘tomato’ method of hastening germination on any seeds this spring? And if so, what are your results? I had quite a few hips on Betty Boop when I trimmed her back a bit at the end of the year. I came up with 105 seeds (not as many as I expected) and cold stratified one group of 35 (damp sand in fridge) for approx. 30 days. One group of 35 was placed in a baggie with damp sand and placed in fluctuating outdoor temps-no fridge. Then I placed the next 35 in a mushed up homegrown tomato-the tomato was quite small but was the only ripe one I had at the end of Jan. Since the tomato both got moldy and then dried out, on Jan 25 I arbitrarily decided to wash those seeds and place them in water, which I changed every 3-5 days. On Feb. 22 I noticed one of the seeds germinating in the water. Today I have 9 seeds that have emerged from the outer coating. I checked the two other batches, which I have kept with my other seeds, outdoors on the patio in a shady cool area, and there are no germinations yet. Will continue to compare the batches.

Hi Jackie,

How is your experiment coming along?

I’m attempting a similar experiment. I had 10 OP hips of ‘Many Happy Returns’ (usually a good germinator) so I have cleaned the seed in H2O2, and put half the seed into tomato pulp (as per Simon’s recipe above), the other half into seed raising mix slightly dampened with a 20:1 mix of water:vinegar. (My usual dampener for the stratification to simulate an acid environment). After 2 weeks, I will put the ‘tomato’ seeds into a similar mix, and both will go into the fridge.

There are 49 seeds in each batch, as I selected only the larger ones.

Rod