R. nutkana behavior?

Anyone have any idea what the ploidy of ‘Schoener’s Nutkana’ is? R. nutkana itself is a hexaploid (6X) and ‘Paul Neyron’ is almost certainly a tetraploid, so…

And about R. nutkana. Does anyone know how the chromosomes behave in reproduction? In the Caninae section the pollen carries only 1n while the ovules get 3n or 4n, depending on the ploidy of the individual. I have read work that suggests R. nutkana, a hexaploid, divides its genes evenly with 3n going into pollen and 3n going into the ovules, but I’d like some confirmation of this, if possible.

Why I am asking is: I have a proprietary seedling from Ralph Moore that is ‘Orangeade’ X ‘Schoener’s Nutkana’ and it is highly fertile. I don’t know its ploidy, but if I had more info about its Nutkana side, I might be able to guess.

Finally, assuming that R. nutkana makes 3n pollen and 3n ovules, is it reasonable to assume that if I pollinate R. nutkana with diploid pollen that I should get (mostly?) tetraploids? The same should happen if I use R. nutkana pollen on a diploid seed bearer, yes? Would one of these approaches be better than the other for any reason?

Thanks for any insights you may have to offer.

Paul B.

I’m curious about Schoener’s Nutkana too. It crosses fairly easily with tetraploids. I have fertile seedlings from it that act like tetraploids. I’ll be happy to provide root tips if anyone wants to do a squash (hint hint David).

The western American species can be difficult to identify and I wonder if Fr. Schoener confused one of the tetraploid species with R. nutkana.

This article looks like it might have some info on tetraploid hybrids between the diploid R. pisocarpa and the hexaploid R. nutkana, but only the first page is free.

Link: www.jstor.org/pss/2471076

I can look at the pollen diameter of Schoener’s Nutkana if anyone has pollen to send me.

I have also wondered about the parentage of Schoener’s Nutkana, as its leaves have an oddly modern look. So I just pulled fresh leaves, buds and blooms off both R. nutkana and Schoener’s Nutkana and was quite surprised how similar they are - - except in scale.

Similarities: the brilliant Neyron pink of the petals, the tiny dot of yellowish cream at the base of the petal, the petal shape, the stipule shape, the leaf margin, shape and color, the reddish canes, the color of the filaments and anthers, the way the hips color in exposure.

Gross differences: armature, scent, receptacle and hip shape, leaf surface texture.

The one big proviso is that my R. nutkana came from Forest Farm, with all the error that entails, and the leaves have glandular structures with surprisingly distinct green apple scent. It otherwise bears no similarity to R. rubiginosa.

Warning: these are large images.

Here’s a comparison of the leaves.

http://rosefog.us/TemporaryImages/SchoenersNutkana50%25.jpg

Here’s the petals:

http://rosefog.us/TemporaryImages/NutkanaPetals64%25.jpg

R. nutkana stamens, anthers, etc.

http://rosefog.us/TemporaryImages/NutkanaStamens.jpg

Schoener’s Nutkana’s stamens, anthers, etc.

http://rosefog.us/TemporaryImages/SchoenersStamens48%25.jpg

Comparison of the hips:

http://rosefog.us/TemporaryImages/SchoenersHips50%25.jpg

Yes, plenty of differences, but also enough similarities. When I walked a leaf of R. woodsii over to Schoener’s Nutkana, it was clearly much more different. I have a copy of Erlanson’s article if anyone is interested.