Forgot to inquire (or decided not to since I admittedly have no clue what I’m talking about here). I doubt there is any connection, but Vielchenblau and Errinerung an Brod are two purples that go chlorotic fairly easily for me. Is there any link in the chemistry that allows the pigments of these two to “go blue”? They weren’t mentioned in the earlier examples.
It might be interesting to undertake some paper chromotography of all my bluer roses to try and see if I can determine the pigments in them.
Do I remember correctly that EAB is behind Vielchenblau? Anyway I don’t know the answer to your question but chromatography I do know. If you can get standards and a protocol and a big budget go for it. An alternative is spectroscopy.
The approach I would use it to get a sample book of photographic gel filters, match up the absorptions of specific pigments with roses that are known to contain them and snap away under the best whole white light you can muster until you know which filters work for which ‘pigments’ then use that filter to screen seedlings. This has been discussed here elsewhere, I recall making specific filter recommendations.
You might be able to screen leaves rather than petals if your rig is sensitive enough. You would need to clear the chlorophyll but leave behind the pigments so you’d need a solvent system that would work for that.
I think I remember that somewhere here you might find a discussion of using a Spectronic 20 for the purpose instead of photography or chromatography. Again, you would need a solvent system but also standards.
Don,
There is no obvious connection between EAB and Veilchenblau.
Everybody’s Magazine 24: 746-757 (1911)
The Quest of the Perfect Rose
Franklin Clarkin
“Veilchenblau,” wrote Herr Schmidt, "is a direct seedling of the ‘Crimson Rambler,’ not cultivated by fructification with another kind. The name is a reference to the March violet.
The notion that the two varieties are related may have been suggested by the fact that Geschwind (1884) described the color of ‘Erinnerung an Brod’ as veilchenblau.
Karl
[quote=“Don”]If you can get standards and a protocol and a big budget go for it. An alternative is spectroscopy.
[/quote]
Well, I don’t have access to a spectroscope. I was thinking filter paper, crushed petals, and acetone; and then just comparing relative Rf’s! LOL I missed the other thread on such, and evidently don’t grasp the difficulties. I suppose only a few pigments would really show up on paper, however.
A couple of the important pigments won’t show up on paper. Arisumi (1963, 1964) found that the special pigments in ‘Grey Pearl’ could not be extracted either by hydrochloric acid or petroleum ether. Repeated treatments removed the ordinary anthocyanins and carotenoids. What was left looked like the untreated petals of ‘Sterling Silver’.
Paper chromatography can isolate some co-pigments that are barely visible or not visible at all. These can be exposed by fuming the paper over ammonia. In fact, whole flowers can be suspended over a little ammonia in a covered jar. In a short time the flavones and anthocyanins will change color in distinctive ways. I once did this with a bloom of ‘Perle d’Or’. It quickly turned tan.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/King/Chemicals.html
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/King/RosePigments/RosePigments.html
Karl
Philip,
This is an old post, and informs us that the purple is not an uncommon result of this cross.
Re: Rosa laevigata
Before I was able to get Basye’s Purple, I did the foliolosa x rugosa cross and got many plants some very close to BP.
by pierre; Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:17 pm
This is Rob Rippetoe’s GOLDAXDORHOR,
