This picture is of an OP seedling of Closer to Heaven. Last spring I was visting with Paul Barden and he grabbed several hips from CTH and handed them to me. This one survived a strange Oregon winter and summer (2011) and numerous attacks by deer. That alone makes it a keeper in my mind. It is acting like a miniature climber. Who knows what the pollen parent might be. If you have ever seen Paul’s place you will know why I say that.
Neat, Jeff, congratulations! I hope it reblooms for you and it shows a decent level of cresting. More than likely, it’s a self. I know Paul’s place has been a jungle, but the way those stamen fold over the stigma, it’s likely to be selfed.
It does have some cresting. I’m thinking about back crossing it to Crested Moss if I can find any pollen. I had CM in Oregon and never did find any. Nothing seemed to work on CM when used for seed either. I know CM is stingy for pollen but I think it was my inexperience in pollinating that screwed up the crosses.
Jeff, if you bud and have something upon which to bud it, I can provide you with some of the MORqueencrest, the pollen parent of Closer to Heaven. It’s the Queen Elizabeth X Crested Moss hybrid breeder. I seriously doubt if it will ever flower here in Encino, but I don’t want it to just disappear, so I have it planted in the “garden”, in hopes of getting it established in several places to prevent its loss. Ralph lost it a couple of times. Fortunately Paul and I were able to return it, and 0-47-19 (among others) to him.
The danged thing won’t bloom here in Encino. The “photos” of it I have are 35 mm slides somewhere in the thousands of them in the garage. I don’t know exactly where. I can tell you the bud is long like a Queen Elizabeth’s. The color is very nearly Crested Moss as is the thin petal quality. The fragrance is very strong and sweet, like CM. The flowers don’t last terribly long. It can mildew and black spot can be an issue, but it’s Queen Elizabeth X Crested Moss for heaven’s sake!
I just had one of those DUUUUUUHHHHHHHHHHH moments. I have a copy of Paul Barden’s “Persil” that I can cross my OP CTH with. Persil doesn’t look the best right now, but I’m still going to give it a shot. Hey, it doesn’t cost anything.
Good luck with these crosses Jeff! Its a challenging trait to pursue: it disappears from offspring so very easily and many seedlings are sick, lack vigor, or have ZERO fertility. I dont think there is a more difficult trait in all of Rosedom to try and cement into a breeding line.
Case in point: two years ago I decided the thing to do was to back-cross ‘Crested Jewel’ onto one of its fertile offspring. I chose ‘Crested Damask’ as the seed parent, since I knew it could produce viable seed. Pedigree-wise, what you have here is (‘Marbree’ X ‘Crested Jewel’) X ‘Crested Jewel’. The idea was to emphasize the cresting trait by concentrating the cristata genes in the cross. What I got was about fifteen plants, most of which were extremely mildew prone, many had no vigor at all, and none bloomed in year one. Fast forward to May 2012: most of these are blooming (or about to) and only one plant shows ANY cresting at all on the buds. (less than either parent) This also happens to be the weakest, saddest looking seedling of the lot, and the open blooms are less than 2" across, a muddy medium pink. Terribly disappointing. That was my last attempt to pusue this trait. I am throwing in the towel on cresting. Its going to take far more effort than I’m willing to put into it.
I have ‘Queencrest’ here as well, and it loathes my climate. The first foliage of the year is always stunted and deformed, and within weeks is stripped off by Blackspot. If it forms buds, they rarely open. If they do, they are sadly deformed. If you saw my specimen next to Ralph’s as it grew at Sequoia, you would be certain they were not the same plant, it grows so badly here. I’ve never been able to extract pollen from it in the 8 years I have grown it. It barely hangs on from one season to the next. Not a plant I would recommend to anyone, for any reason.
Thanks Paul. I remember well you telling me about how hard deveoping a crested line would be. I’m stubborn enough to continue giving it a try, but I will keep what you have share with me in the forefront.
I just got back in from removing the anthers from the OP CTH blooms. There are plenty of anthers but I’ll need to dry them and see if they give up any pollen. I didn’t have any of Persil pollen to put on it so I used what I had readily available…Julia Child. I guess I’ll see if this seedling accepts pollen.
Since Queen Elizabeth (which has no cresting) somehow opened the door for Moore to help transmit the mossing to modern roses in the first instance, one could experiment by backcrossing the later “stubborn” crested hybrids back onto QE, to see if more solid-breedable transmission of cresting occurs and results in a more useable crested kid rose.
ie. …putting this another way, the transmission of cresting traits might have something to do with the genetics of QE (and who knows what other modern roses) allowing cresting to be transmitted.
When it comes to genetics, nothing really sounds dumb. From what I’ve read, the key is finding that bridge and exploiting it. But on the other hand it might just be luck that one little speck of pollen with the right DNA that gets grabbed by a stamen with the right DNA and gives you what you want.
Of all the crested crosses I’ve ever made, this one is the most crested. April Mooncrest. It’s at least seed fertile as I’ve raised a few selfs. Morcrest is a terrible plant, but well crested. It’s weak and can black spot to beat the band, yet remains clean here without spray. It’s best used for pollen as the seed isn’t very fertile (actually, neither is the pollen, but it works better than seed) and most seedlings raised from it are very unhealthy, which is why I chose April Moon (and the fact I love the rose!) as the seed parent. It performed like a Buck Iceberg in Newhall. That’s quite a compliment!
Not a plant I would recommend to anyone, for any reason.