Pedigree breeding and diversity.

Technique Embryo Culture
, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
101

Simon, it’s too bad more species aren’t accessible for you in Australia, especially as you are so proximate to Asia. For what it’s worth, here in the U.S. provenance is seldom assured.

Even if we collect a rose, who’s word can we take that what we have is correctly identified? As I’ve said, even experts often disagree.

In truth humans tend to look for the exception not the average form of anything. Average is what delineates a species, is it not?

Have you thought of continuing some of the work begun by Alister Clark? He did some fascinating things. I’ve often thought to carry forward ‘Scorcher’ for instance.

Pierre, I agree with your summation. Unfortunately the quickest way to marketability is to integrate the modern genome quickly into species. It would be fun to start from scratch and create several entirely new breeding lines. It could be done withing a relatively short time. If I had space and time I would start.

Here’s a new hybrid that just flowered. As you can see I am serious about trying to get back to species. The results aren’t always that aesthetically pleasing, but it’s a start.

It’s a long way from anything commercial but then I’m the only one I have to please for now. If it eventually ends up in a compost pile I’ve harmed no one and at least my curiosity is satisfied. The journey is it’s own reward, is it not?

Link: www.helpmefind.com/rose/pl.php?n=67859

102

Robert

I have no doubt about your involvement with sps as we exchanged years ago about it and you communicate a lot here and at HMF.

Doing as you say: “…the quickest way to marketability is to integrate the modern genome quickly into species.”

You just repeat the process of outcrosses that with the following backcrosses quite paradoxally led through consanguinity to genetical impoverishment, reduce adaptability and open an easy path for deseases.

The more so with smaller progenies.

This strategy led to i.e. Maxi loosing all valuable coryanna desease resitance it was intended to get.

About space and time did you read the article I wrote for a recent RHA newsletter about breeding for breeding efficience?

103

I feel that Jim Sproul’s work with the hulthemias are a very good example of what can be done working with a species (particularily one on the “edge” of the rose family).

I would hope that working with another species on the “edge”, R. Setigera, could result in a similar sucess story. Along this line, I tried to “cheat” a little by starting with Therese Bauer; but none of my pollinations of Therese Bauer with R. Setigera pollen worked this summer. I did not try any “tricks” like adding hormones (or other chemicals) a week after pollination or washing the pollen with acetone before applying.

Link: www.rosarianscorner.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=a33cc858b829b66a07207a934aafc936;act=ST;f=14;t=16578;&#top

104

I agree Pierre but as I said to go back and start at the beginning is a challenge I’m not up to making. In the case of the hybrid I posted, I had moschata here for instance, but it was easier to use ‘Nastarana’. If I were younger I might attempt start over. It’s easier to build on the work of others.

Henry, Hulthemia is a great example. Jim was kind enough to share one of his proprietary Hulthemia hybrids awhile back and now I’ve integrated it into my banksia hybrids.

Jim used some interesting modern roses when he created it.

The genome is gaining diversity quickly.

105

I know.

Here is a rare obvious sp flower feature to incorporate to modern roses. And why Jim thinks there are very few others left is evidence. It is may be the last one.

But this is phenotypical not genetical diversity. Following the path he is going released vars should be at least 90% modern. It will not restore lost adaptations and desease resistance.

106

I add to the preceeding that I would like to have achieved what Jim is doing as I would be proud to have a rose like Honey Dijon sold at many nurseries as it is. I saw it lately in a german nursery site.

My point if argumented is mine. Just exposed to friendly controverse. That there are other opinions is just sound.

Opinion diversity is a necessity as is rose genetical diversity. :wink:

107

Hi Robert,

“On the other hand I disagree that the number of species integrated into genome will ultimately be few. I think there will be many more.”

I am in total agreement with this - that many species will/can/should be used. What I meant to say is that from a particular species that is being used, that very few of its genes/traits would ultimately be incorporated into the rose. This is also the problem that I think Pierre is talking about - that when backing crossing to modern roses that there is ultimately an impoverishment of original species genes that are brought in.

As I mentioned, however, this will happen from the necessary backcrossing and inbreeding to permit expression of desirable recessive traits. But even when that happens, we can be sure that there are still many “unseen” recessive traits that will find their way into the rose genome.

Rose X species hybrids are almost without exception “ugly ducklings”. The genetic diversity that they contain though can be truly exciting. With subsequent generations and taming, something fantastic and breath-taking may result.

Henry, thank you for your comments about the hulthemias. My strategy in using them has been to not just get the blotch, but also to preserve as many hulthemia genes as possible. That is why I have worked at producing several different lines of repeat bloomers, each line though coming from ‘Tigris’, is down a separate path so to speak, through ‘Persian Sunset’, ‘Tiggle’, and my own ‘Tigris’ hybrid, “H65-2”. Instead of working down a single line, I am trying to make crosses between the different lines, and I have continued to work with ‘Tigris’. We are all very fortunate and thankful for the opportunity to use ‘Tigris’ through the work of Jack Harkness. Without it, the path would have ended prematurely.

Let me say however, that ‘Tigris’ (the phenotype) with the exception of its yellow petals and a red/burgandy blotch at the base of its petals, has very little that is desirable. In fact, I would say that everything else that is represented in its phenotype should be “tamed” out of it (eliminated!). That is not to say that there are not perhaps desirable recessive hulthemia genes in ‘Tigris’ that might produce something very interesting in modern roses. That is the very reason that I have been careful not to move forward through just one line coming from ‘Tigris’.

Pierre, I like the way that you say that opinion diversity is also needed. I absolutely agree! And I enjoy all of your comments! Regarding ‘Honey Dijon’, it is great to hear that it has made it to Germany - I would love to make it there someday also! I must say though that ‘Honey Dijon’ certainly does not offer any better blackspot resistance than the average modern rose. I am just by nature a “sucker” for novelty.

Jim Sproul

108

Hi Jim, it sounds like we’re pretty much on the same page. I do think we could go back and recreate roses from species as Pierre suggests to avoid health problems.

They wouldn’t look much like they do now.

As I said earlier it’s much easier to integrate moderns to get something acceptable to most. Of course this has been your tact with Hulthemia and so far this has been my tact with Banksia.

Hopefully we can retain enough unique character to make it worth the effort. I know you are very close with Hulthemia.

It does keep things interesting.

109

Honey Dijon has made it to Australia too. Almost bought it the other day too.

110

Don

There is a Rosa bella derived and Rable Rouser child to be introduced in 2009:

Teeny Bopper

111

Pierre,

When I said this; “Question: When we do try and go back to the species do we find they are now so far removed that success is limited at best… almost like the traditional speciation barrier.” I was thinking that maybe just going back to the species might yield poor results because sufficient genetic ‘drift’ had occurred through intensive hybridisation resulting in cultivars that are genetically incompatible with the species from which they came. It reminds me of examples of geographical isolation of various species that have been shown to have come from common ancestors and had, at some point, become isolated and had continued to evolve in different directions so that when/if they did encounter each other at some later date the genetic differences would be too great to ensure any viable offspring would be produced… resulting in true speciation (though this is a grey concept too). I don’t know… I think about this and then my brain starts to hurt when I think there is ploidy affceting things as well :frowning:

I’d really like to see someone perform and experiment in which you were to carefully select just two varieties of rose and perform crosses using just these two roses, for an extened period of time, and performing only F0 crosses, just to document all the different forms possible from the two founder varieties.

112

Botanists consider there are little genetical barrier in genus rosa. Same for modern roses. This does not imply that all and every cross will take. Many roses are picky when mating but if you persevere looking for different combinations few things are impossible i.e. the hulthemia progeny that had a very difficult and slow start is going now.

Many breeders do not care about ploidy.

I.e. Ralph Moore whose older miniatures are diploid when the later are mostly tetraploid.

Maxi a tetraploid was bred from diploid x coryana in a few generations as Robert shows elsewhere.

Like domestic animals roses species are outbreeders. That is they rely first on cross pollination. Some allowing self pollination (inbreeding) if no there is no cross pollination.

Generally for outbreeders inbreeding leads to a higher frequency of recessive, deleterious traits in homozygous form, inbreeding depression, reduced health and fitness and lower levels of fertility.

113

Robert,

Yes, I think that we are definitely on the same page. It will be very fun to watch the Banksia progress that you are making.

Pierre,

‘Teeny Bopper’ is a wonderful rose bred by Christian Bedard. As you may know, he is Tom Carruth’s research assistant and is having some very good successes.

Also, regarding fertility and vigor, I think that many of the modern roses rank very high on both of those counts. We all just need to keep working on health.

Jim Sproul

114

Here are interesting excerpts even if they deal mostly with seed grown crops.

"from Sustainable organic plant breeding from the Louis Bolk Institute

http://www.eco-pb.org/09/5036.pdf

Conclusions:

Organic agriculture has a different concept of plant health. Characteristics should not be added to existing varieties, rather new plants types should be developed whose growth patern is better suited to organic conditions. Important selection criteria include: … polygenic resistance to disease and plagues.

An organic breeding system should strive to maintain the greatest possible genetic diversity in a variety.

Conventional varieties are increasingly bred for highly conditioned circumstances…This inevitably means a loss of genetic diversity. Advances in gene technology and technology patenting are only accelerating this trend… Inbreeding and genetical erosion will be the ultimate results."

Along the many texts included there is the conviction that monogenic resistance is to be avoided as too easily broken down.

FWIW

115

Since this thread has already been hijacked…

One species that I haven’t heard mentioned yet that holds potential is R. minutifolia. What would a minutifolia hybrid look like anyway- inquiring minds want to know:)

I am absolutely enthralled right now with a seedling that could be a potential minutifolia hybrid (but I have nothing else to compare or base it to). It is so completely different than the supposed mother that I can’t really make that claim (unless it ends up having bristled flowers and hips!).

The habit/architecture is completely unique (at least in the samll amount of roses I have- and have grown), and will end up being a fine, full shrub/bush. It is the first rose I have seen with a conical christmas tree-like architecture.


Another characteristic, that is new to me, is that (some of) the young foliage appears to be mottled/spotted before greening up. The foliage also has an interesting leaf texture.


The prickers might seem to suggest minutifolia influence.


All in all it’s simply a gorgeous plant with loads of character.

116

Hi Jon, congratulations! It’s a very interesting seedling. What was the pollen parent, please? Minutifolia is such a mule, it would be interesting knowing what it potentially mated with. Thanks! Kim

117

Thanks Kim, I shotgun approached it so it could be anything really. I tried a very diverse selection of pollen and only had three hips/seeds form. Just a hunch but I believe dad could be a found once blooming yellow climber that is very vigorous and with very large foliage that I BELIEVE could be gigantea related- but purely conjecture. It did come up labeled as a minutifolia and early without cold stratification- so I’ve been watching it from day one trying to see any minutifolia influence in it. The cotyledons were small and had white suture lines from being cramped inside the achene but the first leaves were modern rose compound (which I wouldn’t expect).

There’s a trick to keeping minutifolia alive that I haven’t figured out yet. I didn’t over or under water- or so I thought (I kept it drier than my other roses but did water it when the soil was dry). If I had to do it all over again I wouldn’t fertilize, not even once with even a weak solution, and I would try to keep the roots cooler by burying. Grafting may fix this problem but also may inhibit seed production.

118

Thanks, Jon. Having grown Minutifolia in two different climates over the past 25 years, I know it can be somewhat of a mystery. I’d always figured it would be more heat requiring being a California native. But, rereading a site about it, it dawned on me that while it does need decent drainage, it isn’t a dry, HOT requiring plant. In San Diego County where it was native, it frequently received fog and overcast mornings with warmer, drier afternoons. The site said the foliage was stress dormancy induced. OK. The three potted Minutifolia in back get all day sun, filtered through other roses. They do look more stressed than the one in similar soil in front which receives only four to five hours of direct sun, then reflected light for the rest of the day. The front is quite a bit cooler and damper than the rear because it is a sunken, walled garden sheltered by the walls and house. The back is an exposed southern/western facing hillside which receives full, direct sun as long as there is some.

The plant in front began flowering early in November and has continued pushing buds and flowers regularly. The rear ones aren’t flowering. The flowering one has lush (for it) foliage all over it while the others have new foliage toward the tops of their canes only. The rear ones are planted in Miracle Grow Moisture Control potting soil to prevent their need for being watered more than the other canned roses. The one in front is in a much lighter, spongier soil with a very heavy mix of perlite. I didn’t plant it but received it that way. All are five gallon nursery cans. This is a much more coastal influenced environment, which should be more to what it is native to, than the Santa Clarita Valley where I previously grew it.

In Santa Clarita, the soil was a lot heavier than it is here and than the potting mix. There was hotter sun, and the temperatures were easily ten degrees hotter and colder than here in Encino. Minutifolia had very good drainage on the slope where it grew and received half day shade and filtered light through the lilacs and other large rose plants where I put it. It seemed to flourish in wetter years and usually continued flowering well into fall when kept watered with the other roses and shrubs. Stellata mirifica received the same treatment (as it does in the can here) and continues flowering all summer there (and here).

Where are you located? Perhaps, knowing this might provide some clues to helping you figure out what to do to make it happy? Kim

119

I’m fairly sure it has already died.

“it frequently received fog”

I was wondering about this because the hairs on both this seedling and minutifolia itself pick up sand like a magnet. I almost wonder if they have an electrostatic charge and if the plant collects water this way.

120

Soil pH could be a factor. Sometimes the SW has some really swing shift changes in pH, as well as some native species having various pH preferences. Rosa californica, for example, is odd compared to most roses in its pH values.