'Paul Noel' or 'Paul Transon'???

‘Paul Noel’ is wichurana x ‘Monsier Tillier’ and its flower looks very similar to MT. ‘Paul Transon’ is a similar kind of plant. Neither have any descendants listed on HMF. Just wondering whether anyone has grown them or tried them? I have what Patricia Routley thinks is ‘Paul Noel’ (from her), that I am keen to try but am concerned it has nothing listed.

I had both of these ordered for spring but they were both substituted for other plants, which was kind of a disappointment. I know Paul Transon can be used as a pollen parent. I do not know about Paul Noel. Apparently a lot of what goes by the name Paul Noel is actually Paul Transon. Hopefully this spring I can obtain one of these roses.

It has always struck me as odd that no further work was done in this group of ramblers, either crosses among the group to enhance repeat blooming or outcrosses to further develop them. Jersey Beauty seems to have been used by some, and Ralph Moore used 0-47-19, but little else seems to have been done with them. Has anybody used any of the group? Which are fertile?

Mark

There are some hybridizers that used them well. For example, there is the Perennial series and the Super series of ramblers. Some European hybridizers have been using the ramblers in their modern hybrids. Rambling Rosie is an example of this. A lot of the modern landscape groundcovers descend from both Rosa wichurana and Lady Gay. In essence, theyre dwarfed ramblers. So, ramblers are still present in breeding but the angles taken with them have changed over the past century.

I think these ramblers have been under used and are worth exploring. Some of them should be triploids but I figure there is a good chance they are pollen fertile. There are so many of these ramblers that are half species in blood, which makes them interesting. I for one feel the need to explore the great unknown.

I plan on trying Ghislaine de F

Jadae I have also considered this space issue. The best solution that comes to my mind is to first just grow a few at a time. Hopefully I pick out the ones with the best merit but there are so many nice ones to choose from. Then I plain on crossing them with miniatures. Hopefully this will keep the size down, meanwhile also allowing me to see which ones have the greatest merit. These ones that prove to have the greatest merit I will then cross onto other roses besides miniatures. I think many of these would be interesting to cross with modern floribundas. I find the hybrid wichurana, hybrid souliena, the hybrid musk, hybrid multiflora and many of these early climber/rambler roses interesting. Anyway that is at least what I am planning to do.

If you do use Chevy Chase tell me how it goes this is one I crossed off my list to experiment with. I do not remember why I crossed it off. But I did order Paul Noel, Paul Transon, and Cornelia this spring. The first two like I said above was substituted. But maybe I can get at least one of them this year.

Ghislaine de F

Hi Adam,

pyramides of resistancy seem to be a main goal of the professional breeders and even more - of the scientists, that are specialized in roses.

I also try to go on that way, but not only.

You have also other traits out there, that are quite interesting - no thorns, winter hardiness, remontancy out of new species crossings, superbe odours and colours, etc.

Ghislaine de F

I LOVE Ghislaine; she is just about perfect. I think getting a smaller version of her and perhaps more recurrent bloom would make a perfect shrub rose. Her beautiful apricot blooms quicklyl fade to a pure white. I know some like this feature whereas I would prefer a more stable apricot. Lots of nice things there to play with. Totally spotless for me here in Richmond, VA which gets LOTS of blackspot and basically THORNLESS. Also takes shade.

Jim

The Tea blood is what I’m interested in. I find it interesting that HMF lists it as occasional repeat late in the season given it is listed as an F1 wichurana hybrid. I’m thinking of doing a back-cross with ‘Monsieur Tillier’ x ‘Paul Transon’ to see if I can get a shrub out of it with wich. features.

Starry Night, which is stated as a direct Rosa wichurana hybrid, is fully repeat blooming. Granted, its a blackspot nightmare here but it is definitely compact and repeating. Why someone thought using a rose descending from Cathedral in breeding landscape roses was a good idea is beyond me. It is one of the WORST roses for blackspot I have ever seen. I believe there are other repeat blooming roses directly from the rambling species.