Paranoia runs deep

General Discussion
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21

Robert, that’s precisely why spreading the things around makes such sense. Just as we’re discussing how Ralph never used 0-47-19 to make much of anything other than minis, WE seldom take what we’re focused on in any other direction. Hulthemia’s largest attraction is the flower, however, what advances in own root, drought tolerant landscape material could come from it? I’d bet those working with mosses are focused more on recreating and improving them similarly to what Austin had in mind to do with HPs, Bourbons, etc., yet we’ve half kidded about thornless crested. As Ralph always said, and we’ve learned, you can’t go in every direction due to time and space and you can’t retain everything. You CAN spread things around, as Cocker did with Harkness and Hulthemia, and let each run with things in step to their drummer. Should you find yourself wishing to take an earlier step in another direction, there’s possibility that it still grows somewhere.

Though I have no where to grow them, I’ve wanted someone to take 0-47-19 in to improved ramblers. I mentioned drought tolerance from Hulthemia previously. I’d enjoy a Mermaid, Golden Wings, Golden Showers type plant with Hibiscus looking flowers. It would be incredible to see if it may be possible to retain some of the Hulthemia look to the foliage in a larger, improved plant. The flowers are serendipitous, but I love “wild foliage” instead of the same old, same old. That’s a large reason why I love the Golden Angel X R. Californica nana. Too little attention has been paid to what they look like between blooms. I want plants which are beautiful for other reasons so they can take their places to the front of the garden, mixed in among the other cast members instead of hidden behind them, or relegated to the “rose ghetto”. I know others have their bents, too and none of us can go in all the directions (though you’ve tried! hehehe)

I’ve emailed Steve, asking if he can, and is interested in, accomplishing what we are asking. I’ll let you know what I hear.

22

Kim said: “Just as we’re discussing how Ralph never used 0-47-19 to make much of anything other than minis, WE seldom take what we’re focused on in any other direction.”

Case in point would be ‘Mel’s Heritage’ (see link) bred from 0-47-19 and ‘Crepuscule’. Mel Hulse gave this rose a home at the Heritage and it has performed way beyond my expectations. The SJHRG is now propagating and selling it to raise funds for the Heritage, which I think is fantastic. That rose was exactly what I had in mind when I first got a plant of 0-47-19 and it is still something I am working towards. There is no reason that fully remontant Ramblers like the Barbier’s couldn’t be created from 0-47-19 and ‘Mel’s Heritage’ proves that it is possible. I doubt Ralph ever pursued that possibility and maybe he didn’t even conceive of it, but I did. Putting your breeding plants in the hands of others opens up possibilities that the creator of the variety never conceived of, and thinking of new ways to use “old dogs” can be extremely creative, and often very meaningful.

Paul

Link: www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.51139.1

23

Mel’s Heritage is drop dead gorgeous here, Paul. I was given one at Sacramento this past April. I’m excited that a spot to put it in the ground and let it go is finally within grasp.

24

I suppose that I wasn’t very clear about what happens when I “let go” most of my seedlings. The vast majority are donated to the local rose society. It’s only the bad ones that get tossed and pots/soil recycled. It would be more cost effective for me to recycle all of the pots and dirt, but I have chosen to give them away. This year, I donated between 300-400 rose seedlings to our rose society. They will have a plant sale sometime next month. Now, I must admit, I have no idea where they are going, so for practical purposes, I suppose that they are gone. At least I have the satisfaction of someone else enjoying the roses!

Regarding Hulthemias, I think that I89-2 and G34 we be good candidates to include in an archive. These would be important because they are the closest to the species remontant seedlings that I have. Each of them had a parent that was a first generation seedling from ‘Tigris’. As such, they would have more Hulthemia type genes than their later descendants.

I89-2 resulted from [(‘Orangeade’ X ‘Abraham Darby’) X ‘Midnight Blue’] X ‘Persian Sunset’, while G34 resulted from {‘Halo Today’ X [‘Geisha’ X (‘Tobo’ X Singin’ in the Rain’)]} x “Tiggle”.

These are the kinds of seedlings that I think have more to offer than many of my remixes of modern types.

I think that Robert may have been talking about one of my better smaller HT vs Floribunda type seed parents that I let him try, “LYTR”. It was a seedling of ‘Lynn Anderson’ X ‘Tournament of Roses’. It set hips with everything. It produced about 40 seeds in each hip and germination was fantastic. That seedling though was very strong on pink coloration. It gave me ‘Heather Sproul’ when crossed with ‘Hot Tamale’, and then when ‘Heather Sproul’ was crossed with ‘Chipmunk’ and that seedling crossed with a seedling of [(‘Singin’ in the Rain’ X ‘Roller Coaster’) X ‘Tropical Twist’}, I got a mini seedling code named G16-2, that was later named ‘Pearl Sanford’. Now ‘Pearl Sanford’ is far superior as a seed parent than was “LYTR”. It is my favorite seed parent for modern exhibition type roses from minis to floribundas and in every color. It is far from the perfect little rose, but it is a great breeder. Over the last 4 years, I have produced more than 16,000 seeds from my three ‘Pearl Sanford’ plants. “LYTR”, however, is gone.

On the other hand, Kim, you are right that there may be an older seedling that you might only after a time decide that it would go well with something new many years later (like a love affair crossing centuries as in Somewhere in Time). That happened to me last year. I had a nice English type seedling coming from ‘Abraham Darby’, by I’m not sure what since the tag has been lost (though I can take an educated guess) that I’ve had for several years that I decided to cross with some newer type English rose seedlings coming from the 2008 crop. Those seeds are planted awaiting germination. I can’t wait to see what is produced!

It will be interesting to hear what type of seedlings that others would want to be archived - certainly many that have done species work would have specimens that would be hard or impossible to repeat. I am hoping to get something from R. minutifolia. If something comes of the seeds that I have planted, it would also be a potential candidate for archiving.

Jim Sproul

25

lol, The Fairy has been around since 1932. But now it is the blueprint and genetic basis for some of the newer top sellers. Go figure. I grew it. I hated it. I still cringe when thinking of trying to pull grass from between the branches or pruning it in the winter.

I saw that Cecile Brunner (and sometimes Sanguinea and Mutabilis) have recently been selling at some of the high end nurseries.

What was old is suddenly new! :slight_smile: This rings especially true if one considers that the rose industry is facing a change in demographics. A lot of the folks I originally met when I was a young teen in the Portland Rose Society are no longer with us. Now, the baby boomers are in. Also, Gen X are just starting in on the home buying industry. My generation, Gen Y, is beyond clueless about plants and homes (in general).

So, what is old to one generation can be an entirely new thing to a different generation. With these older beings, comes their general characteristics that are portrayed and marketed as what a rose is.

Food for thought.

ps. I hope Blaze, or anything like it or bred from it, never makes a come back. lol

26

Jadae, BLAZE?! FEH! Bite your tongue! LOL! Hey, wanna make a billion dollars? Breed Blaze with The Fairy, then dump the results on New Dawn! For the other side of that arch, I found a registration for a repeat blooming sport of Dr. Huey. NOW, I can die a happy man! What else is there to wish for in rosedom?

27

You two will be severely punished for uttering such thoughts in public, I assure you. Feh, indeed. :wink:

28

“certainly many that have done species work would have specimens that would be hard or impossible to repeat”

Why? I do not see except for the endangered species. In all other eventualities genes will be available for millenaries. As well as an infinity of unexplored new combinations.

As I have ample space and going a lot of unusual roads, I used to archive a lot of seedlings: up to 1000 yearly after three years evaluation. Just to realize that a very little percent are of real further use. And that often if these were not still available I could better choose to explore an other route. May be better ones. Be it for genetical diversity only.

I advised “reinventing the wheel” on this basis.

Also i.e. little back crosses were made as soon as a few Soleil d’Or seedlings were raised. None to remember. Even if foetida is far less BS succeptible than its progeny…

Just like Jim most progenitors I use are mine and 2/3 years old. A few are also loger used as parents, some for ten years now. The later often being another case: low heritability of outstanding features. And/or low fertility.

Just as we have to learn as much as possible from our so numerous and so industrious predecessors, we have to reconsider past as well as actual achievements. Even ours.

29

I don’t know about anybody else but I certainly don’t want to have to repeat some of these crosses.

The work is done. I want to move on.

We could repeat them, but there are no guarantees we will get better.

Nobody is getting younger. They may be worthless but there’s only way to find out for sure. At some point we have to move forward.

30

Sooooo… what it the next step, here?

31

Probably for each of us to determine what we wish to include, preserve, share/spread around to those interested. Write down any information you wish preserved with the rose and put it on whichever format we end up with. Sound reasonable?

32

Is this an international thing… obviously sharing around across international borders is not possible, but the database is. I think people are moving in three distinct directions here and I’ve lost my way a little… one group of people are talking about preserving important but not necessarily released seedlings… the 2nd group is talking about preserving already released but significant roses and the 3rd group is talking about archiving both… what’s the general concensus?

33

I agree it is international. There are ways to do this. I don’t think it’s really splintered into three factions. My hope is it will include #3, both released and unreleased material. None of us can see the total potential in every seedling. We’ve all let things go to have them come back to bite us. Ralph did, I know I have. It is your decision what you feel is sufficiently valuable to include on your list. It is up to everyone else to determine what sounds valuable and interesting enough to them to ask for it. What may appear to be played out or insignificant to you, isn’t necessarily so to someone else. One man’s meat and all.

You know we all have different focuses, different directions so we’re going to see different values in each plant. Ralph never worked on ramblers with 0-47-19, though I talked to him about it many times. He was only starting on it in the past few years by crossing it with Gold Badge. Someone else will take that and run, probably producing some pretty neat stuff.

Speaking of neat stuff, the newsletter arrived and the article about thornless Rugosas hit a nerve. Ralph created an either Cal Poly or Golden Gardens, I don’t remember which and don’t have the resources available at the moment, seedling with Rugosa. The original is thornless and white. It sported to yellow and remained thornless. A friend has this as well as two other Rugosa seedlings he created and she has said cuttings are available.

Do we have any Canadian members who should be included here? I’m not sure where everyone is located.

34

lol, we can pretty much share “in spirit” here, Simon, unless you have some clandestine 0-47-19 or similar, hidden down under, somewhere… :0)

35

wanna swap for my Graham Thomas x op?

36

How does Graham Thomas perform there George? Here in Los Angeles it is a fifteen foot climber which will not bloom unless it’s allowed to grow that large. I have use of one now which has finally begun producing. If it was my call, it would be mulch!

37

lol… must agree with ya, Kim.

I never pruned it, I just “let it grow”…It made a huge climber just as you describe. My GT went to rose heaven years ago, it used to give me lots of die back and lots of BS, here in my BS-loving climate. Not one for me.

The GT x op seedlings were just an experiment last season from some other plants…they mostly turned out to be easily blown insipid buffs, and bleached yellow/pinks…even the odd one with PM (we dont get too much PM here, but yes, it did manage to do that too…LOL)…all gone to heaven…but it was good for embryo practice…lol