One can develop roses that do well in most places, but just as Knock Out is a great rose in most places, it does not do well in all places. And some roses are so vigorous, they happily adapt well to many conditions. But roses do have basic needs, and while some do more with less, I don’t think it is realistic to expect all (or any one rose) roses to thrive under all or any conditions. When all basic needs are met, any rose should do well. It’s just that the basic needs of different species are slightly different.
I had to let this perk for awhile. This year with no spray and no summer to speak of most of the seedlings where slaughtered after the fall wave of disease swept in.
Just a sampling of Playboy looks good. The whole idea here is to get these seedlings established and form a symbiotic relationship and to see what potential they have. After a good years growth by whatever means there will be plenty of time to see which ones can take the stress. I really doubt anyone anywhere has grown seedlings in a disease laden bed and enviroment such as here without a very long effort. And then over a long period of time the bed could naturally become disease neutral and you end up where you started. It’s not the same thing as planting in a new bed 50ft away.
Open source plant breeding goal is to build up horizontal resistance and genetical diversity in order to get away from modern plants chemical addiction.
OGRs are very diverse but all close to species and selected without chemical input from open pollinated seedlings.
Just opposite to HTs.
First step is to stop spraying in order:
A to weed out the too chemical dependent ones and
B to recuperate the natural plant cooperating organisms.
By the way there are many recent medical publications about our human colon microorganisms and immunity. It is more and more evident that it is a very diverse fauna/flora (thousands of species) that is coevolved and a totally indispensable cooperating part of our immunity system. And that many actual difficult to cure (orphan) autoimmune deseases are from disorders at colon microorganisms level.
Mycorrhizas are just as essential for most plants.
Second step is in the presence of enough desease inoculum roughly select for better performance.
I believe that you cannot overstate or over emphasize the need for a(n) healthy soil community. The necessary bacterias and mycorrhizae are depleted or non existent in most soils that have depended upon petroleum based fertilizers, and in some cases, in our attempts to create plants that survive and thrive in our existant soils, we are creating plants that survive and thrive in much less than ideal soil communities. Not sure that this is the direction one should take rather than restoring soil health, although it may be a form of helping a plant to evolve (adapt). My concern is that (esp. in food crops) by adapting to depleted and damaged conditions we are most likely also sacrificing nutrient content. I have no doubt that roses are exceptionally high in nutrient content, just because of all the animals that seek them out over other choices as a food source. I don’t think they eat them because they have curb appeal.
Two things:
Particularly in urban areas where seismic stability is a major concern, any top soil which may have existed, is long gone due to excavation and compaction of the soil to meet stability requirements. In arid areas, the layer of ‘top soil’ is nearly nonexistent to begin with, so any beneficial organisms are marginal at best. Many of the faster growing areas, where some gardening might be expected to occur, given any kind of room, makes creation of healthy soil a requirement for any kind of success. I agree with you about the extreme need to build healthy soil communities, particularly where food production is the goal.
Second, I don’t remember whether it was LeGrice in Rose Growing Complete, or Harkness in Roses, where I read when scurvy was rampant in the British Aisles during WW II, research showed the hips from their Dog Rose were 25 times greater in Vitamin C than an orange and up to 60 times greater than lemons. LeGrice admonished to seal any rose seed in galvanized screen to prevent rodents from feasting on them. I believe it was in that book he stated the actual seed contained many vitamins including various B and A. No wonder the vermin love them! Kim
It is somehow comforting to know that LeGrice too was Rodentially challenged. 
Yup. Some things are just part of “The Human Condition”…rodents, politicians, taxes, water and fungal issues… ya just can’t get away from them. Kim
“Rodentially challenged”…! It’s a condition alright.
Oh rats! I was hoping it wasn’t a genuine condition.
I’m not saying that the average “Joe Gardener” shouldn’t try to amend the soil properly to create that community of organisms. I’m just saying he probably isn’t going to go to the effort. And right now the key for the survival of the industry is to get more people to grow roses besides KOs.
I also agree that no rose will ever be bullet proof absolutely everywhere. There are just too many variables to make that possible. KOs are the perfect example. They are supposed to be bullet proof but we all know that they’re terrible in California and they spot like mad for me here in Michigan too. But they do grow vigorously in a much wider range of conditions than most other roses do. Like I said, I want a lovely HT with great form and lots of fragrance that will do the same thing. I can dream, can’t I?
I want some of what you drank for lunch, Seil! LOL! Kim
In the ‘Old Days’ around here garden plots never had anything added and yet year after year for fifty years more than enough food could be harvested and canned to last a year.
After the promotion of Urea a lot of things began changing. It is really something else to take note of the amount of fertilizer now applied to crops with no little expence.
In the case of roses, hundereds of years of perferiental treatment has given us todays roses. Neil
Neil, your plots “never had anything added” as far as “fertilizer” might have been concerned, but I’m sure they used animal and garden “manure”, mulches, tilled back in the waste plants at the end of the season and knew enough to rotate things around to prevent depleting the soil. Kim
Never used cow or horse manure but did have a lot of rocks. Bird droppings, dead bugs, worms, all is additive. Rotate and tilling back works. I would never think to use fertilizer on annual flowers but would be hard pressed not to use fertilizer on these rose seedlings. Neil
Neil, sounds like you need to get back closer to the more self-sufficient species. I typically don’t fertilize much of anything around here (only a rare feeding with weak fish emulsion when something really look like it needs it) and even so, the species and hybrids tend to do just fine. There have been a few good doers with “names” too! I don’t want to encourage the ones that need pampering. ;0)