Ideas for roses questions to answer through DNA fingerprinting

Don,
I had taken a fancy to ‘Allgold’ long before I learned that R. setigera is in its ancestry, through ‘Goldilocks’ and Horvath’s ‘Doubloons’.

Horvath’s work is another example of how useful it can be to cross two species before working them into the garden roses. He crossed Wichuraiana and Setigera, and seems to have gotten farther than his predecessors who had used Setigera alone.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/NortonHorvath1939.html
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/HybridSetigeras.html

Similarly, Wright (1967) wrote, “It would appear that if Rosa rugosa is first crossed with Rosa blanda, and then this hybrid is bred to Hybrid Teas or Floribundas, the dominance of rugosa’s weak bud-stems and excessive thorniness is broken much more effectively than if repeated infusions are made with the tender roses to a similar degree of loss of hardiness.”
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/Wright/Wright1967.html

This is just about what Sam McGredy II did in combining Rugosa and Cinnamomea with his HT stock.

Of course, the “trick” is to figure out which pair of species give the best results, breaking whatever linkage is most troubling.

Geschwind knew the Prairie Roses, and thought they should be developed further. I just don’t know whether, or how much, he exploited them.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/GeschwindPrairie1864.html
Karl

Where was my head?
Of course Geschwind used a R. setigera derivative in breeding ‘Erinnerung an Brod’, the seed parent of ‘Donau!’.

Geschwind used a R. setigera derivative in breeding ‘Erinnerung an Brod’, the seed parent of ‘Donau!’.

Erinnerung an Brod is a parent of Veilchenblau as well.

Don,
Not so.

Everybody’s Magazine 24: 746-757 (1911)
The Quest of the Perfect Rose
Franklin Clarkin

“Veilchenblau,” wrote Herr Schmidt, “is a direct seedling of the ‘Crimson Rambler,’ not cultivated by fructification with another kind. By culture of several years, the new kind has rested constant. There have been no dosings with chemicals. The flowers appear in large umbels, are semi-double, and of medium size; when opening, partly reddish lilac; partly rose lilac, changing to amethyst, and, when fading, steel-blue; the general impression is that of the March violet. The color changes according to the place and soil. It has a substantial growth, pleasant tea scent, bright green foliage, and few but sharp thorns; up to the present it never has been attacked by mildew, and is one of the hardiest climbers. Trials of crossing with sorts apt for this purpose will be made; and probably we shall soon be able to greet the much-longed-for cornflower-blue rose.”

The confusion may have started when someone not conversant with the German language noted that Geschwind described the color of ‘Errinerung an Brod’ as “veilchenblau”, and guessed that there was a connection with Schmidt’s ‘Veilchenblau’.

Trivia note: Geschwind mentioned that ‘Perpetual Pink’ (which ages to purple) was the only Prairie rose suitable for use as “Trauerrosen” (mourning roses). He also recommended ‘Errinerung an Brod’ as a mourning rose.

This got me to thinking. Some years back I spent much time reading the old English botanists. I was puzzled when various purple-toned flowers were described as “sad”. Perhaps the association of purple with mourning is what they had in mind.
Karl

Not so.

I’m gobsmacked.

Don,
There is much fiction in the reported ancestries of our roses. I have found breeders contradict themselves in various accounts, and again by what was claimed in the patent applications.

This is also true for old roses. Many breeders planted varieties together and let the bees (etc.) do the work. Other breeders (e.g., Harison, Desprez) hand-pollinated their plants, but did not record the crosses.

Then there were the folks who offered “educated” guesses. These guesses were repeated, and eventually were reported as fact.

Another annoying problem is that someone reported crossing with “a Bourbon” or “a Scotch rose” or “a Noisette”, then someone else comes along and formalizes these to “Rose Edward” or “R. pimpinellifolia” or “Blush Noisette”.

A common error has been to assume that ‘Parks’ Yellow Tea-scented" (1824) was the primary source of yellow coloring in the Tea, China and Noisette groups. It was not. Knight’s ‘Yellow China’ (introduced 1823) was a self-seedling of the ‘Blush Tea-scented’. By the 1840s, Parks’ rose [Ochroleuca] had lost favor in England, but the story of Parks’ trip to China became attached to Knight’s rose [Flavescens].

Yellow color could turn up either through the influence of Knight’s Yellow China, or in later generations of plants descended from the ‘Blush Tea-scented’.

I mention this because of the common notion that ‘Jaune Desprez’ was bred from Blush Noisette x Parks’ Yellow Tea-scented China. There is no historical support for this parentage (so far as I can find). In fact, a contemporary grower suggested that it came from a Bourbon pollinated by a Noisette. One or both of the parents might have had Tea-China ancestry.

‘Souv. de la Malmaison’ is still called a Bourbon despite its Noisette and Tea ancestry.
Karl

Yes one needs special chemicals. Agarose needs to be DNAase free, and the water needs to be treated with chemical before/During autoclaving. One sees that more is required than just sterility -enzymes must be destroyed as well or one ends with mush instead of bands. Don’t cheap out like open a new bottle of Isopropanol. The kits also make it easier.
I worked for a number of years some 15 years ago with RNA. Both electrophoresis and in situ hybridization.