Help identifiny best parent choices

The roses have started to show up at my place. My first roses came yesterday. I have written down all the roses thatI have on order and I am wondering if I could get some input on how any of these rose my be for hybridizing.

Here is my list

R. arvensis

R. nitida

r. hugonis

r. blanda

suzanne

r. acicularis

r. nutkana

r. wichuriania

agalia

trier

ghislaine de feligonde

the gift

r spinosissima

Aurthur Bell

Vielchenblau (always wanted this one just to have not for hyb.)

Golden Glow

Halo Glory

Fuzzy Wuzzy Red

Twilight Skies

Precious Dream

Pink Powderpuff

Out of Yesteryear (excited to use this one)

Bayses Blueberry (Have no idea what to expect here)

Sweet Chariot

Sunshine sally

Topaz Jewel

Halo Sunset

Jans Wedding

The Impressionist

Festival Fanfare

Lichkonigan Lucia

Compassion

Autumn Sunset

Irenes Delight

Golden Wings

Seagull

Therese Buget

Victorian Memory (does set hips according to high country)

Canary Bird (R. xanthina s.)

Thats all of them.

Any input on any of these. I know I have asked about some of these before. Just though I would pick everyones brain one last time.

Thanks

-Steve

Well Steve,

R.Arvensis has been used by Louis Lens, with

very interesting results.

Agla

Pierre,

Have you worked with these? Do you have any positive or negative results you could share?

Topaz Jewel has very limited fertility. I can remember reading only 3 people who have gotten out of it, and one of them is Ralph Moore. But you could get lucky… I’m working with it but without success…

Basye’s Blueberry is very fertile, but none of its offspring are thornless. But I’m going to cross it with 77-361, and god dang it, I’m going to get something thornless out of it. I do remember that the Antique Rose Emporium is going to release a hybrid of it pretty soon. I can’t remember the name, but the cross more or less was (Basye’s Blueberry X Katy Road Pink) X Rise n’ Shine. I haven’t seen anything new in their catalog to think that they’ve released it.

Of the r spinosissima hybrids I’ve germinated, Fruhglingsmorgan was the best. I’ve grown open pollinated of different varities before. Somebody sent me seeds of it crossed with Applejack, and the flowers are beautifully flecked and freckled light pink and cerise. Not in my garden now, it’s growing in the garden of my cousin in Alviso. I’m going to visit soon, and hopefully it will be blooming.

Ralph Moore had great success using Golden Glow in his hybridizing program in the early stages of creating minis. I’ve seen the plant and I saw it is good enough to be used right now as the yellow is very deep, but it fades a bit…

R. blanda has never gotten big for me and never bloomed. I’m going to toss it. I think it hates the warmth in my garden. It likes the cold much more.

Now all you need is a fertile China to accept all that diploid pollen.

I certainly do have a lot of diploids in my mess of roses. I hope to cross r. hugonis and r. xanthina with a lot of them but dont expect much success. I really want to try to cross a lot of them with r. acicularis. Many of my diploiad choices came after I had settled on all of the tetraploids that I wanted for this season. I wonder if I could get a Trier x r. hugonis or a Aglaia x R. hugonis.

Great information Enrique. I appreciate you taking the time to write some some things down for me.

Hello Steven,

Last year I tried many different pollens on “Trier”,

from tetraploids and one triploid.

All did start and were ripening, untill deers ate

all the hips in a August night!

Best wishes,

Pierre.

‘Topaz Jewel’: Don’t waste your time working with such a reluctant plant. Keep in mind that to see any definitive results from any given cross, you need to look at a population of 100 seedlings or more. ‘Topaz Jewel’ will never give more than a couple of seedlings here and there, and the ones it does give are weak, disease prone and rarely of any merit. Even Ralph only ever got one plant he deemed worth keeping (‘Peach Candy’) and it is a weak grower that is difficult to propagate. It is really only noteworthy as the sole hybrid from ‘Topaz Jewel’, otherwise it would not be considered of great merit.

‘Precious Dream’: extrememly fertile as a pollen parent, but none of us have seen any results yet. (this is our first year using it and the seedlings are germinating now) I have a feeling this may be a very useful parent if it can transmit its shrubby character and free-blooming habit.

‘Trier’: Always worth pursuing, especially if you outcross to wildly different roses. Best as a pollen parent.

The species you have listed are worthwhile roses, and many of them have progeny of note. If you want a useful remontant Diploid to cross with the species as a first step, consider the dwarf China ‘Oakington Ruby’, which is a Diploid. It will also help keep the offspring down to a manageable size.

‘Golden Glow’/‘Arthur Bell’: Both good yellows that have a long list of progeny in commerce. I think great new things can be done with ‘Golden Glow’ to create yellow climbers for cold climates.

‘Twilight Skies’ has been discovered to set seed easily with almost anything you put on it, and the seeds germinate readily and in copious quantities. I am germinating the first crop right now and will report on the results when I see some. Any plant that is as easy to work with as this one is worth exploring: the faster you can obtain results, the more likely you are to find something of merit.

‘The Impressionist’: I wouldn’t bother with this as a breeder as it is extrememly Blackspot prone. Go back to its parent, ‘Graham Thomas’ instead.

‘Sweet Chariot’ works as both seed and pollen parent, but it produces a lot of lookalikes in pinks only; no purples. Perhaps it just needs to be mated with the right thing? Go back to its parent instead: ‘Little Chief’.

‘Out of Yesteryear’ is definitely worth working with. I have never seen any other rose produce such a high percentage of healthy, vigorous, glossy-leaved seedlings! The only drawback is that it produces soft colors only; no strong colors like reds. The deepest color I have seen so far is a medium gold/orange seedling that came out of a cross with ‘June Laver’. Still, its offspring are often very beautiful and many are worth keeping. Use it as a pollen parent, as it is reluctant to set seed and the germination rate is fairly low.

As for ‘Fuzzy Wuzzy Red’ and ‘Halo Glory’, you may be the first to work woth these two. (Aside from Ralph, of course) There are no recorded offsrping of either of these roses yet, but they are both likely to be fertile and worth exploring.

Regards,

Paul

Link: www.rdrop.com/~paul/seedproduction.2004a.html

Steven,

In my opinion not enough diploid species roses have been crossed with Rosa wichuraiana to develop breeding lines that could be used for further hybridizing. I think it would be interesting to cross this species with Rosa hugonis to develop a yellow breeding line that could be used with rugosas. The potential would be there to develop yellow rugosa hybrids with very good disease resistance. I don’t think there is much point in crossing Rosa wichuraiana with the diploid R. nitida, since Rosa rugosa/R. nitida hybrids like ‘Aylsham’, ‘Defender’ and ‘Corylus’ would be more valuable (larger flowers, better foliage) to use. And regarding the diploid Rosa arvensis, a Rosa wichuraiana/R. arvensis hybrid (‘Green Snake’) has already been developed.

For sure, I would do a ‘Trier’ x ‘Arthur Bell’ cross. I think that one has good potential to develop a Hybrid Musk’ with yellow or yellow blend flowers.

Paul,

I was intrigued about your comment that ‘Trier’ is better as a staminate parent. Apparently you know something that I don’t. Can you elaborate?

Paul

Yes Paul,

“Green snake” is one of the Arvensis Hybrids from

Louis Lens.

And yes, the Hybrid Musks were obtained with “Trier”

as a seed parent.

But this does not necessarily mean it cannot be even

better as a pollen parent -but maybe then on diploids-

Best wishes,

Pierre.

Thank you for adding some information and advice everyone. This is all very valuable to me and will help me not waste some of my time on some roses and concentrate my time on others.

oh… I wouldn’t say “waste time”… It’s a hobby. Unless you were working with Jackson and Perkins, then it wouldn’t be wasting time. Lots of good things have came from waste-of-time roses such as Crested Moss… I for one am using Cardinal de Richelieu which is not fertile, but I hope to get lucky. But hey, maybe I will get lucky and get roses that will be the shade of the cardinal… I don’t think there are no roses, even the newer ones such as Midnight Blue, etc., come close to the shade off the Cardinal… But who knows. I may be lucky one day.

My comment about ‘Trier’ should have been qualified. I realize that Pemberton used it almost exclusively as a seed parent. It works just fine as a seed parent, but I would choose instead to work it as a pollen parent because it produces such small hips and tiny seeds that are hard to work with. I would prefer instead to use some seed parent that sets ten or more seeds per hip and are larger, for ease of handling. You will make faster progress that way and have a larger population of seedlings to select from. Obtaining two or three seedlings from a cross can be very frustrating because you can’t see the full scope of what a cross will do. For me, results are all important; I’m not just toying with the roses I work with, I want to see some real results. Don’t we all?

Paul

Yes Paul,

This is quite understandable, but…

Aren’t the Hybrid Musks a “result”?

If Lambert and Pemberton lived today,

I guess they would not be starving from

hungriness!

Best wishes,

Pierre.

Lots of possibilities!

How about Autumn Sunset x Golden Wings going for a nice big healthy large yellow shrub/climber?

Or why not try an Arthur Bell x Lichtk

Lichtk

Thank you for all of this wonderful information. I am keeping everyones comments so I can go back to them when I need to.

Ah… Cl