I’m curious as to what one would expect from these, as a class. My supermarket frequently has potted clusters of them for $1.99, and it’s hard to pass up the temptation, but I don’t know if breeding with them would be a complete waste of time…
My assumptions, are that negatives might be:
-Dependency on chemicals
-Tenaciously holds onto blooms, even after they shouldn’t (i.e. not self-cleaning)
Better perks might be:
-Possibly shade-tolerant…
-Easily rooted
-Reliable blooming (?)
Might they offer any merits to garden plants in their offspring if used in crosses? Had anybody messed with the newer ones to be able to report first-hand?
(I have, over the years, acquired Lamy Parade, Gigi Parade, Denise, and an orange I haven’t yet definitely I.D.ed, as well as a red…)
I am tempted too!! I love the stripes of Gigi and the purple of Lamy and bought them last year. A couple years ago at the rose research meetings in Hanover and touring Kordes, it sounds like the potted minis are selected in greenhouse environments for quick production, compact size without growth regulators, long lasting flowers, etc. Often multiple single node cuttings are put into a pot, they put out one growing shoot and flower and then are sold. Since there are multiple single bud cuttings in a pot, it looks full in a 4". Sometimes for a 6" they’ll let individual plants branch a bit and flower, but not always and sometimes use single bud cuttings there too and sell them upon first bloom as well.
My experience so far has been that they seem to be black spot prone and seem to not grow very fast or vigorously outside. Maybe selection under very moderated conditions in the greenhouse for a temperature range and other conditions (water, fertility, etc.), leads to many not tolerating the extremes outside very well. Black spot needs 6 hours of free water to germinate and penetrate leaves, so generally black spot is not a common greenhouse disease with wise watering practices, but powdery mildew is a big problem and they seem to try to select for resistance to powdery mildew.
I think I’ll still buy them and give them as gifts to people and periodically still try to gather pollen and use it from them, but not expect much for garden adapted seedlings. I had a hard time getting pollen from most of them.
I had Lamy a few years back before a nasty hot, dry spell took it out. (Dumb Gulf-Coast transplant that I am, I had to learn the hard way what arid climates can do to potted plants inside of a single day!) Lamy blushed a deep pink in the hot sun at the tips of its petals, as I recall. Denise can take on green hues and tends to ball in wetter weather. (Lamy never got a shot at wetter weather, but would assume the same for it.) Denise is now more than 2’ tall, and has somewhat larger blooms. It is rather BS-prone, but a survivor thus far.
But you make a good point. I would assume that all things rain-related, have been neglected in the selecting, and balling blooms, BS, and who knows what else should be expected… Having said that, I would have expected minis as a group to be mildew-prone, but I don’t think I have ever noticed mildew on the two I have currently outdoors…
I will view them as a fun exercise in aesthetics, if I breed from them at all, but expect little if any landscape merit. I wish I could have some idea as to the pedigree/genotype. I generally assume that’s more important than the little bit that one can see from growing a plant…
I kept a yellow Kordana alive several years. Also a yellow grown in CA for a couple seasons. BS was the challenge, and winter-hardiness is non-existent. I’ve not had mildew issues with any minis that I grew in past decades. I’ve not bought any new ones since Nor’East went away. I used pollen from the CA yellow but not with any useful results. Finding pollen was sometimes a challenge in such a double flower. It didn’t set seed with pollen from others. For low light I already have a better yellow that came from RiseN Shine around 1985.
I bought a bunch of Poulson and Kordes supermarket minis over the past several years and they all froze to the core in Zone 5b/6a. I did not get any hips to set using their pollen in survey crosses. I didn’t really try to use them as mothers.
I did notice that the dwarfism that they exhibit seems to be somewhat different than the Moore minis in that they lack profoundly short internodes. At the time I suspected this was due to their being chemically dwarfed rather than genetically but David Z’s comments seem to preclude that.
The only one I’ve potted out into an adequately large pot to see how it does is (tentatively I.D.ed as) Denise Parade.
It is in fact a small to medium-sized shrub, and not very short-internoded.
Perhaps they succeed as minis in pot culture because of early basal breaks, branching, and quick flowering? In this regard, it seems to make sense that they might share heritage with Poulsen’s “courtyard roses” – climbers which are selected to presumably “flower consistently from the bottom to the upper part of the plant”
I’m sure Poulsen doesn’t explicitly manage to breed all of their roses to fit categories, but categorizes after analyses of the new seedlings, so I’m sure there are some siblings in different groups, much as i.e. Cal Ply and 1-72-1 have different habits.
[edit: I meant to say Rise n’ shine and not cal poly!]
I have had several, and they have all performed very well in my hot desert climate and their foliage has been very good, however 1) I have not seen an OP hip on a single one of them and 2) the blooms have tended to lose their form when grown outside. I have not been inspired to use any of them in breeding, even though I purchased them all with that hope in mind. But, a question: How do you know the variety name? None of them that I have purchased have names on them.
Gigi Parade looks great for me in Oakland, CA, and unlike the others, e.g., Karina Parade, doesn’t mildew and seems to get less BS here, although this isn’t BS country. It produces pollen and I’ve used it as a male, this my first year back in the breeding saddle. We’ll see.