Euphrates as a Pollinator

Trying different combinations, including backcrosses may surface something lost or never integrated in latest hybrids.

Yes of course Pierre, but the CV (e.g Euphrates) has to be healthy enough to LIVE for one season in one’s climate to even consider doing that, and then be fertile. In my climate that proved a ridiculous exercise for Euphrates. In some other climates it might be possible.

It will be interesting seeing what proves to haver fertility, where. Here in Southern Californina, Tigris would set viable seed. Both Nigel Hawthorne and Euphrates proved completely sterile, both ways.

Even if sharing the same parent they surely did not get the very same species chromosome

to be sure… which out of those three has shown the most favorable mix of the “rose breeding chromosome pie” over the decades, do you think?

Tigris obviously but it was from being a diploid and consecutively more fertile.

out of the box breeding and not repeating the same crosses the big houses were doing ten years ago.

Look, thinking outside the box has a great ring to it, however what does it really mean?

It could be also said that one person’s idea of that “box” is another’s idea of some “treasure chest”.

So whatever.

You know, the more I get into this rose breeding thing, the LESS confident I am becoming assuming or predicting ANYTHING !

Anything is possible, JUST GO FOR IT.

LOL

Thinking outside the box means you have the kohanas to try something every one else would fear to do because of failure or have an imaginative mind with the vision of creating something totally fresh. I have been quizzed time after time about the breeding parents I use because of the unusual matchups, but people whistle a different tune when they see the results years down the track. With my pre breeding research I do prior to Spring I have a rough idea what I am going to get, but mind you sometimes, sometimes I can get a big supprise. I do all this research because I dont want to waste years of time which is very precious to me at the moment.

As I said, whatever.

A month or more , I used Euphrates pollen on these three cultivars, as you can see rejection has n’t occurred , one can only wait to see if viable seed is produced inside the hip.

[attachment 1243 BonSileneXeuphrates.jpg] Bon Silene X Euphrates

[attachment 1244 SinopXEuphrates.jpg] Sinopè X Euphrates

[attachment 1245 882Xeuphrates.jpg] (Wendy X Altissimo) X Euphrates

There are alot more of different crosses ( Teas, Chinas , Wendy Crosses ) but I have to go hunting for them.

This is a (Baronne Ed Rothschild X Mme Caroline Testou) X Euphrates 2 months and its still hanging on. I just hope there is at least one seed in there for me.

[attachment 1309 euphrates.jpg]

Well, I’m reviving an old thread again, but this has been a very interesting discussion to read.
Has Euphrates had any descendants that were released in commerce? I can’t find any on HMF. Were any of its seedlings any good?
@Warren, you mentioned working with “pure Chinese Hulthemia” in the near future, sorry if I missed where you may have discussed the follow up, but I’m curious to know if there are any updates about how that went?

SeasideRooftop,

The link below is to a thread on the Chinese hulthemia initiated by Warren. Unfortunately, due to an update in the forum the attached pictures are no longer available.

Mark

https://www.rosebreeders.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=48565&p=48565&hilit=Chinese+hulthemia#p48565

Thank you for the link, @mwesson!
It’s interesting in spite of no pics, but I wonder how the seedlings fared later on.
I found a seller in Europe for Euphrates and was hesitating to add it. Warren’s idea of adding more genetic diversity to the Hulthemias by relying on more than just the ever-more diluted descendants of Tigris does make sense to me.
Warren has done some incredible work with the Hulthemias. I figure if he couldn’t get anything viable or worthwhile out of Euphrates, I might not bother with it.

I love necro-bumped posts. It goes boo in the night and digs up the past ;]

Persicas are dearly a pain to work with. Even digging into studies of completely unrelated but highly commercial ornamental plants gives no clues as to the mechanisms.

My Rise Up Ringo is blooming this week. Bull’s Eye gave the eye zone for me the most reliably, but it has major caveats to breed out. They all do. Raspberry Kiss gives they eye zone, but its a hard struck single petal dominant. Despite its willingness to set seed, it germinates very few. Most of these from the UK tend to be better off as male parents.

Thank you pacificjade!
Hehe I 'm glad you took it that way, on some forums they don’t like “necro-bumping”. I’ve been reading so many old threads trying to learn from past experiments so I figured I’d ask where this one had gone.
Rise up Ringo looks like a great one, I hope good things will happen!
I have ordered Nigel Hawthorne in spite of its reported sterility, seems like a nice plant and not too big, so even if I get nothing from it, it won’t be hogging too much room.
The other Hulthemias available in Europe, aside from Tigris and Euphrates, are mainly the English ones, along with a couple of Jim Sproul’s Eyeconics (I’m considering Pink Lemonade; Lychee and Pomegranate are unavailable).
The Interplant hulthemias and the Vissers ones and the Tantaus are also available, but I can’t find any information about what those groups were bred from or how far from Hulthemia they are.
As for Moore’s hulthemias, like 99.9% of his plants they are not sold out here, so sadly I might as well forget about them.
There are many posts mentioning seedlings of Euphrates here, but I can never seem to find follow-ups. Unfortunately I take that to mean they all either ended up sick, dead, or discarded.

Ringo original one, only one that has survived, more than 2 seasons with hips, in my zone 4 A Cdn garden (wouldn’t say thrived) out of about 4 tried in the early days (Ex-Pickering offerings) … never made it past first winter Never tried germinating Ringo … yet.

Point being for my climate, only one l would / could work with as a low priority, as may have the “right stuff” for here … however your in a warm climate so maybe easier varieties sailing.

Of the three original Harkness Hulthemias, Nigel Hawthorne is the healthiest and most refined. Euphrates mildewed horribly, even the flower petals! Tigris was usually clean but would mildew when it was miffed at you for one reason or another. Nigel remained healthy, both in the mid desert as well as right on the ocean. I miss that one the most. He appears to be extinct in the US.

There’s nothing conclusive, but it wouldn’t surprise me if the “Babylon Eyes” series by Ilsink (interplant) descend from Euphrates. We know Roberts father was using it and that Harkness was the one to suggest/give it to him 'Euphoria' Rose (see British Amateur Rose Breeder’s Association Annual reference) even if that rose isn’t eyed itself. The behaviour of that line is just different to the (Tigris x Babylove) x SCRIVbell line from Warner (the BE are more upright growing, mildewed a bunch, far less thorns, didn’t have much resistance to blackspot and canes died back). Sunshine Babylon Eyes/Sweet Spot Calypso is a willing seed parent, just a lot of disease babies with very little surviving.


Very much agreed on better as male parent. RK will put near every flower to hip but even if you sow a 100 seeds it wouldn’t be surprising to just get 3 or so to germinate. Some of the others are better but still issues. Even just letting it all go OP the few that result usually aren’t as healthy as the parent. Berry Delightful is a bit better at germinating. Candy Eyes significantly so but it doesn’t pass on the eye often and they routinely have that very vigorous thorny long canes thing going on.

I wonder if the Kordes “See You” roses will be more willing on the germinating front…but they are probably a year or 5 away from being released in AU if at all.

Vissers Persian Eyes made it to AU last year (?) assumed it was Warners (as he also has one of the same name…) so didn’t get it but has become of interest when finding out it isn’t a Warner. Assume it’s from Alissar, Princess of Phoenicia in some way (given Vissers had 3 bred/released at the same year and Alissar, Princess of Phoenicia is a known parent of one of them). It seems to have a darker/more defined eye than the Warners.

RE: Rise Up Ringo…There’s some confusion in AU whether we have that or Gateway To Europe, so following applies to one of them but which shrug it sets seed but has been on the low frequency side of things, nothing has germinated for me from the first season of having it so seems to be following the general pattern of probably better as pollen parent.

I have the same issue with Ringo setting tons of hips and seeds but having extremely low germination. I got just one seedling (out of the few that I did germinate) with a blotch, but it was nearly identical in appearance to the parent. Clearly it would be more useful as a pollen donor. Easy on the Eyes has been unwilling to set hips so far, and its pollen seems to be low in fertility, but with persistence has given me a couple of interesting seedlings. It would be nice to try using its parent, Eyes for You, although I haven’t been able to get my hands on one yet.

Where do you live, MidAtlas? If you are here in the US, cuttings can be made available.