Damask-R bifera-R fedtschenkoana- Hurst vs Septet vs Thebig-bear Question

General Discussion
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About the identity/status of R. moschata, we have pretty good evidence from multiple data points, as well as widespread acceptance, that the widely grown R. moschata that is a reblooming shrub is the same one that was named by Herrmann and the one that served as the original seed parent in the lineage of the Damask as well as the Noisette… and while the author states that R. moschata is a hybrid (“Rosa x moschata”) as if this is some sort of fact, that is actually very much a fringe view; it is and has always been regarded by most as a good species, not some hybrid (again, if we are really supposed to explore this theory rationally, then what are the proposed parents, and where is the direct evidence?). Mattock claims that R. moschata was left out of the 2015 phylogeny because it’s considered to be a hybrid, but the authors did not actually state this anywhere in their work (they don’t mention the species at all, and he doesn’t indicate that it was gleaned via personal communication, either); moreover, they actually included at least one rose in their study that they explicitly regarded as a hybrid (R. x chavinii). It’s one thing to present something as a theory as part of a broad discussion, but to make such claims that go against current knowledge, and without much in the way of evidence, seems highly problematic to me.

Not to pile on (okay, maybe a little), but the photos of R. moschata also bug me–at least one is obviously incorrectly identified (Fig. 51, R. roxburghii hips!), and I’m pretty suspicious about the identity of the plant in Fig. 48 as well. Again, there are similar issues elsewhere in the paper.

Where did the reblooming background come from? Well, in the case of the reblooming Autumn Damask, the repeat flowering would be caused solely by the RoKSN A181 allele, which it would probably have inherited from both R. moschata and from R. fedtschenkoana. The same allele is responsible for rebloom in R. rugosa, and is probably also responsible for the repeat flowering in R. laxa. I haven’t checked to see if there are studies that broaden the search for this gene, but there are other species with similar patterns of repeat bloom that could have this or some similar genetic basis, like R. roxburghii (in the double form, R. roxburghii var. roxburghii), R. bracteata, and some forms of various North American species, and probably others.

I should have said this before already, but Happy New Year to you too! :slight_smile:

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In the paper l noted with interest that it was decided to stop doing in house support ISSA ? or DNA analysis as there are apparently “custom labs” that do it faster and more economically.

  1. Anybody heard of these for rose public Reputable analysis labs in Canada that produces an actual report that translates the smudges to the layman as to what class / variety of rose the sample was - hopefully not maybe ?

Not looking for 20% northern europe, 15% asian, 15% Iberian peninsula … etc.

  1. Whats the likely price range and turn around time ? - l want to consider taking the fun out informed guessing on IH put it to bed.
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Darn another reason for the trip to the UK garden paradise UK this summer.

Apparently a lord and Mattock’s progressing on the “Mattock - Heseltine Species Garden” in Oxfordshire. Apparently to ensure collection exists of true vs nursery ascension etc question marks … or something like that.

Also good excuse to visit a college buddy of old that lives in same area as a tenant of another lord, with my presence as a rep of the serfs’ class.

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…. may bring some young leaves of IH if allowed since UK post reliable and fast in my experience for sent and delivery.

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Iwata triparental model is wrong. Based on false assumptions, it had little hope of being verified. Still, some people believe that a formal publication must be true, despite its flaws.

Pirseyedi: Damask DNA diversity (2005)
In our study, 12 AFLP primer combinations with 483 polymorphic bands showed an extreme variability and genetic complexity among the studied Damask rose genotypes.

Babaei et al: Multiple Damask Genotypes in Iran (2007)
All microsatellite markers showed a high level of polymorphism (5–15 alleles per microsatellite marker, with an average of 9-11 alleles per locus). Cluster analysis of genetic similarities revealed that these microsatellites identified a total of nine different genotypes.

Rusanov: Damask DNA diversity (2009)
Such breeding programmes could involve intraspecific crosses with recently discovered genetically diverse genotypes of R. damascena or the utilization of the high heterozygosity of the R. damascena ‘Trigintipetala’ genome.

Karami: Essential oils in 9 Damask genotypes (2012)

These reports agree that there is plenty of genetic diversity among the existing commercial varieties for continued breeding and selection.

The notion that Hurst’s “septet scheme” was ever debunked is based on confusions and false assumptions. (And it didn’t help matters that Hurst died before he could finish his experimental breeding work.) Most importantly, too few people can think of more than a small handful of traits at one time, let alone recognize the correlation of physiological traits with apparently irrelevant physical traits.

In small grains, for example, Aegilops spp. tend to be more tolerant of dry conditions than the closely related Triticum species. Tetraploid and hexaploid species derived from these wild diploids are usually more tolerant of more varied conditions than their ancestors.

Cockerell (1926) wrote: “Thus the diploid R. rugosa, which I found to be a strictly sea-coast plant in Siberia, is a well-defined type specially adapted to its peculiar habitats but not extending even a few miles inland.”
This, and other reports had me baffled over the “Russian Rugosas” used by Prof. Budd and Prof. Hansen for breeding hardy and drought resistant roses.
Turns out that these “Rugosas” were really derived from hybrids of R. rugosa and R. davurica (the Siberian version of R. cinnamomea). The glossy, wrinkled leaves of some of the derivatives are so dazzling that even knowledgeable people were persuaded that all the diversity was part of a single, variable species.
And this is not just shuffling of genes. Some traits can pop up for a while, then disappear. Others are more obviously influenced by local conditions.
Karl

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Regarding the connection between the old Monthly Rose and the once-blooming Damasks, we may be pulling on the wrong end of the stick. According to Monardes (1540), the Rosa alexandrina had been known in his region (Spain) for around 30 years. A miraculous Rose bloomed in Guadalope Mexico in mid-December, 1531. Clearly in the same time frame. I have also traced this rose to Cuba, Brazil and Mauritius.
Pliny the Elder died in 79 CE, but had already written about the twice bearing Rose of Paestum. Same rose?
Let’s not forget that the Dutch were busy improving various garden plants as they were creating the modern Centifolia. There is genetic evidence that Rosa alba was involved, though the symmetry and fragrance came more from the Alexandrina.
What is it with people who know that R. alba was in the picture, but usually neglect to consider its possible connection with non-recurrent Damasks, as well as with the Centifolia?
Karl

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Karl,

The conclusions reached by Iwata et al. based on their research results are perfectly reasonable, and while to my knowledge no one has produced any comparable study that contradicted theirs, at least one study has in fact confirmed their finding of a triparental origin for the Damask. What “faulty assumptions” are you referring to–that species background can be ascertained by comparing gene sequences? They were mainly testing the parentages postulated by Hurst when they discovered evidence of the three species’ involvement.

The Iranian studies you’ve cited did not actually investigate the origins of the earliest Damask hybrid; they only examined the genetic diversity among Damask clones in Iran. Since Iwata et al. only included a small number of Damask clones, those considered likely to be the most ancient, it is logical to conclude that the hybrid originated in the way that their research demonstrated. Moreover, the Iranian studies do not directly overlap theirs in materials, since we have no idea how those clones relate to the ancient Damask clones that Iwata et al. studied. Given that clones like ‘Kazanlik’ and ‘Autumn Damask’ are fertile, it’s perfectly reasonable that there should have been sexual events and accumulated mutations involved in the Damask clones that came into being subsequent to the advent of the original hybrid. Considering the great difficulties in assigning roses to specific classes, it’s also difficult to say whether the Iranian Damask roses are even all true Damask roses in the strictest sense, or if they could be admixed with any other species that might place them in another hybrid category, like Rosa ×alba.

As I mentioned above, the triparental origin of the Damask rose suggested by Iwata et al. has been confirmed by at least one additional study: Complex and reticulate origin of edible roses (Rosa, Rosaceae) in China | Horticulture Research | Oxford Academic

Hurst’s septet theory is, among other things, incompatible with some pretty fundamental concepts of eukaryote biology, like the principle of independent assortment; generally speaking, homologous chromosomes from both parents are randomly shuffled during meiosis. If septet theory were correct and chromosome “septets” were inherited intact, no hybrid rose would possess chromosomes from more species groups than its number of multiples of the haploid set–two for a diploid, four for a tetraploid, etc. It would also pretty much preclude the existence of, say, everblooming hybrids involving reblooming parents and once-blooming parents, because the chromosomes containing alleles coding for once-blooming behavior would always be faithfully preserved in their “septet.”

Stefan

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I’ll try to keep this brief.
Iwata et al:
1. Introduction
… Among the Damask roses of today, ‘Kazanlik’ and ‘York and Lancaster’ are considered the oldest Summer Damask, and ‘Quatre Saisons’ and ‘Quatre Saison Blanc Mousseux’ are considered the oldest Autumn Damask.

Faulty assumption 1:

‘Quatre Saison Blanc Mousseux’ is not old. It turned up around 1830,
Annales de la Societe d’Horticulture de Paris 10: 86 (1832)
“PERPETUAL MOSS. We have not yet seen this marvel, about which we have been talking for almost two years, but whose existence is well known. It comes out of the ordinary Four Seasons and was obtained from seedlings by an amateur near Thionville. Its flower is pure white and of perfect beauty; but its greatest merit is to have the mossy calyx, not like that of the ordinary moss Rose nor that of the Rosa cristata, but in a still much more elegant and singular manner.”

One of the roses currently distributed as ‘Quatre Saisons’ originated as a sport from the Perpetual White Moss, not the other way around.

It these two fairly modern varieties carry the incriminating DNA markers, another faulty assumption (#2 “hybrid plants would not keep rRNA genes clusters of all three ancestral species for a long time.”) also bites the dust.

The few pictures I’ve seen of Fed do not show anything resembling Moss. Glandular hairs, perhaps.

There are at least two forms of Rosa moschata that are rich in pedicellated glands. Roxburgh’s R. glandulifera, for example. “Germs oblong, shrubby, subscandent, armed. All the tender parts ciliate, with glutinous, headed glands.” Then there is R. moschata var Korfuana: “Flowering branches densely hairy and densely provided with pedicellate glands, leaflets densely hairy below the rib, pubescent on the nerves, the younger ones are hairy-bristle on both sides; petioles tomentose, densely glandular; peduncles very hairy, very densely glandular; the back and margin of the plate are glandular; thorax small, villous-velvety, granular or slightly granular; sepals villous on both sides; corolla white, very small; the style is densely hispid.”

And if you are concerned about the elongated hips of the Damasks, check out this 1815 illustration of Rosa gallica.

http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/Rose_Pictures/Rosa/R_gallica.jpg

I just don’t see how R. fedtschenkoana adds anything to the mix.

BTW, the moss of these roses is not entirely unique. In some Begonia hybrids, trichomes go nuts and turn into little leaves, and clumps of leaves that can be cut off, rooted and grown into new plants.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/Begonia/SmithPhyllomaniaca1919/SmithPhyllomaniaca1919.html
Karl

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I see why you might perceive those as indications of flawed assumptions, but whether only the very oldest known cultivars were studied, or some combination of them with their direct descendants was studied, those four cultivars all were in fact found to have identical DNA profiles according to their analysis–and the authors concluded that they all shared the same ultimate sexual origin based on the results they obtained. That suggests that ‘Quatre Saisons Blanc Mousseux’ originated as a sport that was perhaps mistaken for a seedling (possibly a sucker), and if both the mossing and white petal color can be lost through a later sporting/reversion event, to me that only adds further credibility to that explanation. It’s also clear that the authors’ remarks about what R. fedtschenkoana may have contributed to Damask and moss roses in terms of morphological characteristics were all presented as a sort of supplemental comparison of the genetic evidence with the observed features of the hybrids. The authors were not claiming to guess at or speculate about a third species’ involvement prior to the study, it was detected. Further work would obviously be needed to determine the actual genetic origins of traits like mossing, since that wasn’t directly studied.

Stefan

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Stefan,

It should surprise no one that there has been quite a lot of guessing about Moss roses. About all old roses, in fact. For instance, The Moss rose called Crimson or Damask or Tinwell is sometimes mentioned as a sport from the original Moss rose. That opinion conflicts with Thomas Rivers’ (1837) observation that this variety “is a more luxuriant grower than the Old Moss.” This extra vigor, along with the name “Damask Moss”, strongly suggests that this one was a Damask x Moss hybrid.

There were three original white Moss roses that were reported to be sports. Shailer’s White and the Bath or Clifton White Moss reportedly came from the Original Moss, while the Moss Unique may have come from the Unique Provence. All three were noted for the tendency to produce a few petals of reddish pink, or even a half flower of that color. This suggests to me that the loss of color was not due to a “random gene mutation” in any of the cases.


This seems to be similar to this peak behind the “dominant white” trait found in Tall Bearded Irises.


As for the loss of moss where the Perpetual White Moss turns pink, here is an observation from “A.Z.” [The Gardeners’ Chronicle 2: 452 (July 9, 1842)]

“It seems exceedingly difficult to procure a genuine Moss Rose from seed with any depth of colour; seedlings from flowers that have been crossed with dark varieties of Rose Gallica are inclined to lose their moss, as are in fact some of the established varieties. The Luxembourg moss, on its own roots, has this season, in two or three places in rich soils, lost every particle of moss, and cannot be distinguished from a variety of Rosa Gallica.”

The expression of the Moss trait is influenced by environment as well as genotype. I do not assume that pigment directly suppresses the trait. It might be some other quality of the Velvet/Tuscan lineage that happens to be silenced (or activated) along with the imperfect suppression of pigment in the Perpetual White.

While I was going through my notes, I came across another item that may be of interest.

Thomas Rivers [The Floricultural Cabinet, pp. 241-242 (Nov. 1, 1835)]

“Roses vary so much in their form and colour in different seasons and situations, as sometimes scarcely to be recognised: I have seen those two dark varieties, George the Fourth and the Tuscany, lose their colour and become blush, and changes as extreme take place in others”

I have seen this occur in ‘Gloire des Rosomanes’


and ‘Portland from Glendora’.



It may be that the intensified pigmentation of the Tuscans and Velvet Roses is akin to the suppression of pigment in many of the white sports of Damasks, Centifolias and so on. I have to wonder what happens when an intensification and a suppression collide.

I almost forgot:

http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/KoopmanRoseDNA2008.html

Koopman: AFLP markers in Rosa (2008)

This paper indicates a close connection among:

Alba Suaveolens
James Mitchell (pink moss)
Le Rire Niais (centifolia)
Rose de Meaux (dwarf centifolia)

This suggests that Rosa alba, the “Centifolia” of Pliny the Elder and of the Nabateans, was one parent of the Modern (Dutch) Centifolia.

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