Can R. setigera swing both ways?

A few years ago a friend of mine sent me cuttings of his R. setigera. Last season it flowered for the first time and I was thinking it was a male due to the number if bees that frequented it (there is a reference on HMF that suggets bees are able to tell functional pollen from non-functional pollen). I pollinated ‘Immensee’ with it and got lots of seeds. So far none have germinated but I am still hopeful (for some reason ALL my ‘Immensee’ seeds are not germinating). A little while back he tells me that he collected OP hips from the plant and that there was seeds in it. I think he sowed them but I’m not sure. I think I also remember reading on here that someone said setigera male plants could, in some cases, produce hips. Can female setigera pollen still form hips with other roses? If my plant is a female instead of a male what other explanations could there be for the hips on my ‘Immensee’ plant? I collected maybe 10 hips from this pollination and a total of about 50 seeds.

This is a photo of my setigera’s flower: 'Rosa setigera Michaux' Rose Photo

I have a Setigera X OP seedling. Its pollen diameter is 36.3 +/- 1.4. I kept it in my cut from 1000 to 61, but I have had no luck either way with it in hybridizing. Even crosses with Therese Bauer X OP did not work out.

See the following for Therese Bauer’s reported parents: 'Therese Bauer' rose lineage

Try googling zlesak setigera

To see what David Z. Has said on this forum. I didn’t have time to read all the threads, but some interesting info. I remember him saying that a male plant at the MN landscape arboretum had set some hips.

Hi Simon!!

Wow, I’ve never had male R. setigera pollen take on non-R. setigera germplasm, even diploid Synstylae derived material. I’ve sure tried a lot over the years. THe other direction has worked well though- female R. setigera with polys onto her. I am very excited to learn what you get from these seeds and if they behave like hybrids.

There is a slightly hermphroditic primarily male R. setigera at the MN Landscape arboretum. Some years it sets a very small number of small hips with a seed to a few seeds inside.

Still no germination yet. Would it be possible that it could be female pollen acting like an aneuploidogen??? I think a more reasonable explanation is that this clone is also partially hermaphroditic or that here in Australia setigera might be less dioecious due to different climatic pressures?

David, did you (or anyone else) ever try to germinate the seeds from the plant in the MN Landscape Arboretum? So far my plant of setigera has not formed hips.

Back in the late 90’s, Kathy Zuzek (former rose breeder at the U of M) sent me seeds from the R. setigera at the Minnesota Landscape Arboretum. The seeds germinated readily–as I recall it was only about three to four months of stratification in the refrigerator. I kept two of the most vigorous plants from that group–one female and one male. R. setigera is a bit borderline for this area in terms of hardiness but these two come through all but the worst winters pretty much intact. They did take several years to establish–during the early years they suffered quite a bit of winter damage until they reached several years of maturity (4-5 years). Then there was no turning back. They are truly magnificent plants and while they take up a large physical area due to their long canes and draping nature, they are pretty mannerly and I think I’ve only removed two or three suckers in twelve years. Due to their tendency to bloom later than most roses, they tend to be a real focal point in the garden when other roses have completed their bloom. Paul Geurts has examined the pollen and the male pollen is good. The female sets plenty of seeds and seems to cross readily with other cultivars–excepts that none of those crosses germinated. However, I was using mostly tetraploid pollen from modern cultivars on it. David Zlesak has often mentioned that the Setigera’s are pretty fussy about what they cross with and that may have been the problem. I have never actually tried to germinate the OP seed–maybe I’ll collect some this fall to see if the seeds are viable.

One of the reasons for interest in introducing setigera genes into other roses is the possibility that they could introduce resistance against the Rose Rosette virus. If you are interested, one possibility is to start with a cross that already has R. setigera in it

I have looked at the descedants list extensively… the only one available here is ‘Baltimore Belle’ and it is a setigera/Gallica hybrid of little use to Australian conditions. RRV is not in Australia. I’m more interested in what it can add to achitecture and ease of propagation and will be focusing on more heat/humidity resistant roses.

From the earlier comments in this thread you may be better off going backwards by crossing ‘Baltimore Belle’ with R.Setigera and then going forward with your heat/humidity resistant plans. Many a lance has been shattered on trying to introduce modern genes directly into species. (paraphrased from something I read).

Many a lance has been shattered on trying to introduce modern genes directly into species.

“(paraphrased from something I read)”

Interesting… I know we will let us know where these considerations stem from.

The links you send us are invaluable, thanks.

Happy to see you are active and well Henry

I’m hoping the references relating to ‘Heart of Gold’ that suggest the wichurana in it is actually wichurana x setigera are correct. I have this one for this purpose. My intention was not to put setigera with modern roses (or maybe better described as ‘far-species’ roses as opposed to ‘near-species’ roses). The intention was to mix it with various species first and then, later, work onwards through various wichurana derived polyantha-type roses. The species I have in mind for this are transmorrisonensis, pricei, wichurana (+ my op 0-47-19 seedling and other F1-F2 wichurana crosses), clinophylla, bracteata, and longicuspis var. sinowilsonii… to keep things at a diploid level.

I do not know where the notion that ‘Baltimore Belle’ came from Gallica pollen originated. From what I’ve read, Feast’s roses, including ‘Baltimore Belle’, resulted from open pollination. The only (possible) Gallica I have seen here in Tennessee is done blooming long before R. setigera begins. Therefore, it is unlikely that a once-blooming Gallica was involved. Furthermore, ‘Baltimore Belle’ is diploid, whereas the Gallicas are tetraploid.

Be that as it may, the only information we have to go by is what is recorded and enough strange things have happened to not rule anything out. MRII says x gallica, MR10 says x Noisette, Gallica is stated in ‘Quest for the Rose’… “when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains,however improbable, must be the truth? Sherlock Holmes”

Good to see you, Simon. You’ve been missed!

In searching through the 19th century accounts of Feast’s roses, the only mention of Gallica was as a comparison:

The Garden: An Illustrated Weekly Journal of Gardening 17: 503, 504 (June 5, 1850)
American Roses (excerpt)
C. M. Hovey
Mr. Samuel Feast, of Baltimore, the pioneer in the culture of our native or wild Primrose, deservedly holds a prominent place among our Rosarians; for to him everybody who wishes a free-growing entirely hardy, and beautiful running Rose must be indebted. His first was his best, and the best of all that have yet been raised. This was what was then called Beauty of the Prairies (1839), but afterwards Queen of the Prairies (1844). It is a most rampant grower, hardy to the very tips of the shoots in the coldest winters, as > large and double as the Gallica Rose> , and blooms just as the June Roses are about done, and produces clusters of ten to thirty flowers, which retain their cupped and handsome shape under the hottest July sun.

Perhaps someone read this item too quickly and assumed that a Gallica was the male parent.

On the other hand, Noisettes – and Herbemont’s Musk Cluster in particular – were sometimes mentioned as parents.

The Horticulturist, and Journal of Rural Art and Rural Taste, Volume 5(2): 101-102 (Aug 1850)
The Prairie Rose—Rosa Rubifolia
A. Fahnestock, Syracuse Journal

Mrs. Hannah Levering of Baltimore, Md., having removed to Lancaster, Ohio, forwarded seeds of the wild Prairie Rose to Mr. Samuel Feast, an eminent florist of Baltimore, who planted the same, and after they had vegetated, permitted a few to climb over a bed of Noisette roses. The blossoms of the Prairie became (many of them) impregnated from the pollen of the Noisettes. The seeds from the Prairie roses were carefully gathered and planted, and from the many seedlings, the following new varieties were produced, all fine double roses:

  1. Beauty or Queen of Prairies.—Large beautiful deep pink, very double, exquisite form, frequently with a white stripe. This is the so called Double Michigan, prevalent in your city.
  2. Perpetual Pink.—Pink, changing to purple, very double, flowers several times during the season . large clusters.
  3. Baltimore Belle.—Blooming in large clusters, full double, light blush, with a deeper centre. This rose possesses a valuable character, different from the other two, being as fragrant as a Tea rose. These are all vigorous climbers.

The Herbarist (1965) p. 51
Rosa setigera Michaux
Hester M. Crawford
Because of its vigor, its beautiful foliage, and abundant flowers, its climbing proclivities, its adaptability, and most important its lateness of bloom, R. setigera was used as a parent to produce climbers suited to American climates. Samuel Feast of Baltimore used R. setigera to produce several fine first-generation hybrids. For two of these he received the first medals awarded in America for new roses, namely his “Queen of the Prairies,” (Rosa setigera X probably a form of R. gallica), and “Baltimore Belle” (R. setigera X probably a Noisette).

This makes more sense. ‘Queen of the Prairies’ does look something like a Gallica (or Bourbon?), and is triploid.

Thank you for continuing to follow this up. I am no longer needing this information as I am no longer breeding roses and have removed setigera from the garden. It was just not healthy enough for me here and would spot very badly.