black baccarat

Has anyone used Black Baccarat as either a seed or pollen parent. Also does anyone have any blackspot experience with it. I got no hits when I plugged it into the forum search engine.

Many thanks – Bob Zone 9

Good fertility, big hips, hard petals, not BS resistant enough for me.

Hello Pierre Rutten:

Do you think it would help darken the offspring of a mate that tended to throw too many pale seedlings? Have you had any germinations? I was hoping, but not expecting, a more positive blackspot report. Is it worth a try if I could plant it in a controlled location? Many thanks.

Regards, Bob

It is easily BS defoliated here and after spring growth usually baren.

Without sprays, it declined as most HT do here.

Darken it can, I do not remember seing seedlings.

No wonder as most HT seedlings do not build up here.

By the way we may have not so dissimilar climates:

here we have at any time wet spells that when hot favor BS.

As long as cool spring is a privilledged season when our roses grow just like in cooler countries.


Thanks. Is there another very dark red that you would recommend?


As a plant, I have been disapointed in Black Baccara. Mine is 4 yrs old, which is about the max for getting it’s act together, and it is not doing it. By the end of each summer it is pathetic, and it does not have many blooms any time of the year, and it is a mildew and rust victim in addition to BS. I have Black Pearl, which is big, beautiful, vigorous and lightly fragrant-great substance to the petals,a joy to cut and grow. I do not have any info. on its hip setting ability-will try a few crosses with it this year.Deep Secret is fabulous! Fragrant, great for cutting,not a fussy grower-I realize I have very little black spot to contend with so this may not be your case. Black Lady so far is good-new this year-but gorgeous new flowers and great bluegreen foliage. Deep Secret does have several descendants-among those are Blackberry Nip and Velvet Fragrance which is another deep red rose that is beautiful-I don’t grow it but a friend has 3 in her garden, and they do well-she does spray,I don’t. Another deep red (2nd yr in my yard) is Janice Kellogg, which has remained totally disease free, blooms freely, great cut flowers, sets hips well, is mildly fragrant-but the petals are fragrant in potpourri, it resembles a really fat Austin, and my only complaint (maybe)is that the petals are not velvety black, like the other three (and Bl. Baccara),just dark-it seems to get deeper/darker/redder in responce to temp. changes.Deep Secret gets brighter red with high temps,and less velvety. Rose Midge and the squirrels really like J.Kellogg. Jackie

Hi Jackie:

Thanks for such a comprehensive analysis. I still haven’t heard any rave reviews for Black Baccara. The ones you suggested in lieu of Black Baccara sound great. Blackspot is a critical factor here. Helpmefind describes both J. Kellog and Deep Secret as “very disease resistant.” They are now on my wish list which looks like it was compiled by a teenager at a buffet.

Regards, Bob

Taboo is another good deep red. I’ve only used it as a pollen parent.

Black Magic will probably be your best bet. Also, it might be able to produce orange-toned russets as well.

Rob Byrnes and Jadae:

Oh my god! What a wish list I’m getting. As these plants will more than likely end up in zone 8b where my daughter lives and can still accomodate as many roses as we want, I am especially interested in the Black Magic recommendation coming out of that same zone.

Jadae: Did you use Black Magic for seed, pollen or both.

Many thanks, Bob

You’re welcome Robert. Good luck with which ever you go for.

Jadae, Taboo might also be one for orange/russet tones as well. Link below is one of mine that was a russet/orange seedling of Taboo. I wonder what it is about the dark red/near black that produces orange and russet?



Conversely, orange and russet will also produce black red.

Yeah, theyre both multi-layered in reds (cyan, peon and pelar).

I had no idea. I always learn something on this forum. Thanks for information Jadae and Robert.



Followed your link to your Overbrooke Gardens web site. Very impressive.

Robert & Jadae:

Add my thanks to those of Rob.


Thanks for the kind words Robert. It’s much appreciated.