Aviateur Bl

Does anyone have any experience with AB? I want to cross it onto Carefree Marvel and see what I get out of the combo. It seems like the better of the choices from the Rosa wichurana x tea or noisette crosses to use. However, I am unsure and any ideas/advice would be appreciated.

Link: www.helpmefind.com/plant/pl.php?n=461

I grew it more than 20 years ago. Zoe & li photos are not representative of the true var. Other photos are OK.

Fertility is excellent but I didn’t germinate its seeds.

Jadae, what are you objectives with Aviateur Bl

Curiousity is my objective. I am more interested in seeing what happens when Rosa wichurana landscape roses are blended with Rosa wichurana/tea ramblers. Also, I love using Carefree Marvel as a parent.

I have to wonder about the ploidy of Carefree Marvel. Looking at it’s lineage it seems to be all over the map.

It looks like it has dark stamens too, something I abhor.

I dont know the ploidy. Carefree Marvel x Shadow Dancer, a dark red/white striped single shrub (4’ x 4’), is female sterile and male fertile. it might be a fertile triploid? I have no clue, and I tend to ignore ploidy now. I do like the variation in it’s background, though.

I have never noticed the stamens in the garden personally. The flowers arent that big, aand their brightness distracts me from even paying attention. Why do you hate dark stamens, though? I had never even given it thought til just now.

Ah, I see. I just looked at the HMF pics. The first one is mine. The thing is, though, that the blooms are so small (1 to 2") that Ive never noticed. I do know that the seedling I mentioned above has white-ish reproductive parts. I do see how dark parts would be troublesome where it is hot, however. Heat like that is only common here in August. It does remind me that Carefree Marvel has longer lasting blooms than most other groundcovers. They are very rain-resistant compared to most.

Stamens that go black are especially unattractive on anything single or semi-double, even more so when the blossoms are long lasting. I find they have that “Dirty Ashtray” look.

Black stamens are one of the things I try to avoid and breed out of my seedlings. It’s just one more thing to select against in my opinion. Some blossoms have stamens that never go black and age beautifully for that reason. IMHO

Ah, I see. I just realized that the seedling inherited it’s male parts from Dortmund since it matches the photos I just looked at. Dortmund is what I crossed it back to, too, lol.

I’ve often wondered about this rose too. I’m not sure there are any other roses 50% Wichuriana with yellow(ish) blooms that I know of.

In theory, I suppose, it could give rise to remontant offspring, no?

Jersey Beauty is 50% Wichuriana with yellowish blooms with remontant offspring. Even though Lady Hillingdon is a single bloom form it seems to allow many petals in its offspring as in Belinda’s Dream. I used it with Lady Hillingdon this year to get “maybe” a yellowish Tea with a little more cold hardiness. Every time I look at Belinda’s Dream I wonder how it could have come from a once blooming, single bloom form parent.


There are a few others, too. I am not so much interested in that they are yellow-toned, but that they are less harsh in feel/aesthetics than the majority of the Rosa wichurana rambler hybrids. The harshness and/or blandness of many Rosa wichurana hybrids is my biggest issue with it. Otherwise, it is wonderful. Also, I can get pollen from AB locally, so I wouldnt need to grow it at all. I was just seeing if I was wasting my time. However, Pierre said it was fertile, which is good enough for me to at least try once.

This all reminds me of the second reason, other than massive blackspotting here, for why I hate ‘Starry Night’ so much – it is too stark and too harsh in every dimension of it. It reminds me of wet, brilliant glossy white paint x_X yuck :stuck_out_tongue:

Thanks Patrick. I was a bit quick to generalize as to what it was that intrigued me about this plant. In fact, there are a number of other first generation R.w.'s with yellow blooms I had forgotten about: Alb

I would be really skeptical that helen hayes is actally from R. wichuriana. I grew it for near 30 years but almost entirely as a potted plant. Not very vigorous plant. It is too winter tender to make it on its own even with our zero winters. Lost it last year unprotected that way. Gets blackspot but not mildew. Very fine color but little repeat bloom here. Foliage is glossy and reminds me of Capt. Thomas. I’ve tried it as a pollen parent but never got a seedling worth keeping on to the 2nd year.

I dont mind if tangents are taken on my threads as long as the initial question is given a fair look at. To me, it is all about learning and sharing in a fair manner, so I dont mind :slight_smile:

My question has been sufficiently answered, and I have no problem delving further into related tangents. Afterall, what if something was dug up that another could find useful in their “rosy adventures in hybridizing”? :slight_smile:

Well, I’ll take that as an invite, Jadae! :wink:

Dang. Helen Hayes is kinda purty too. But if she gets BS and has little vigor, that kind of defeats the purpose of a r.W offspring.

Anyone know anything about Primrose?? It’s pernetiana parent, no doubt, was prone to BS, I would assume…


Have you looked at Golden Arctic? Or, is this too far removed from R. Wichuriana? The plant is very vigorous, sets seeds that germinate well, and thrives in the Roger Williams Victorian Rose Garden without spraying. Link is to a picture of a seedling I have raised from it.


Link: picasaweb.google.com/registered.in.ri/AndysRoses#5280129087289189010

Nice seedling Andy.

Yeah, it is a good one.

Yes that’s a nice offspring from G.A. I used G.A. a lot some 20 yr ago and got my most disease resistant offspring from Carefree Beauty x G.A. G.A. does well in RI where it was bred, blooms more sparely here in the heat. Spring blooms often have muddled centers and the yellow tends to be weak and fadey. Decent winter-hardiness so that the C.B. x G.A. seedling never lost an inch of wood, even late bloom stalks, in our below 0 winters of a 2 decades ago. Still going strong 20 yr later and no breakdown of resistance to B.S.

Cross either of your seedlings to Toprose for a stronger, more fade-resistant climber. It passes on both climbing and fade-resistance, as well as nice foliage. Both of your seedlings sound nice to me.