Adding ploidy to the HelpMeFind data base and Yellow Altai.

Hi, David,

Is it alright with you if I add this ploidy information to the HMF database. May I credit you with the information?

Also, HelpMeFind lists the name ‘Yellow Altai’ based on Percy Wright’s article in the American Rose Annual. I assume this is the rose you call Yellow Altaica?

Link: www.helpmefind.com/rose/pl.php?n=24094&tab=1

Maybe the problem isn’t with the yellow parent, but instead with ‘Altaica’, which phylogenetic studies have revealed to be something from the Cinnamomeae rather than Pimpinellifoliae (and certainly not R. spinosissima) as was previously believed. Perhaps the belief that ‘Altaica’ is a tetraploid was based on an assumption that it was like R. spinosissima, and instead, it is a diploid. How about testing ‘Altaica’ to see if it’s diploid, or, at the very least, checking out one of its other hybrids (like some of Kordes’ Fruhlings… series)?

Henry’s Blend (Rosa acicularis nipponensis x R15) has been a highly fertile seed parent for me, so maybe using R15 as a pollen parent is a more wise route to take. I’ll try it as a pollen parent this year. The pollen looks identical to Rosa rugusa alba, which I think is due to Rosa acicularis nipponensis. It’s that pale cream, powder-type pollen that is highly abundant but extremely fine.

Sorry, I meant “…[a] phylogenetic [study] has revealed to be…”

Blame it on the wine :slight_smile:

Stefan,

I think you’re pretty astute when you say, "Maybe the problem isn’t with the yellow parent, but instead with ‘Altaica’…

In a brief communication with David, I mentioned that perhaps it was Rosa spinosissima altaica “influencing” the result of triploids when ‘Harison Yellow’ was crossed with this species. I was very suprised to learn that ‘Yellow Altai’ and ‘Kilwinning’ are triploids, and it’s too much of a coincidence that ‘Butterball’ also having the Altai rose as the pistillate parent is also a triploid. Judging from what we know of ‘Hazeldean’ as a parent (poor pistillate fertility and low pollen viability), and the fact its siblings ‘Yellow Altai’ and ‘Kilwinning’ are triploids it wouldn’t surprise me that it is also a triploid. I think from David’s work we’ll soon find out.

Does anyone know if Altacia is different from R. spinsissima? HMF gives them as synonyms.

Ive always just guessed that many of the European briars vary in ploidy from region to region.

R. spin. altaica is one of the many variants/varieties of R. spin. It’s all sort of confusing because there are also some selections and seedlings which are called Altaica (or altaica is used as part of the name). Supposedly R. spin. altaica is a form that came from the Altai region of Siberia/Central Asia. There are other forms of R. spinosissima, and many of them are called Burnet roses.

Peter

Below is a link to a picture of my open pollinated kochiana seedling.

I have not used it very much in hybridizing. It appears that I only have 1 cross still in my garden, see:

http://picasaweb.google.com/HAKuska/HenrySRoses/photo#5070748391693046674

Link: home.neo.rr.com/kuska/kochiana%20page.htm

Arno,

I think I know who’s not telling the truth ;0)

I would have to disagree with the “Encyclopedia of Rose Sciences”, if it says that its not possible to cross in yellow flower color via pollen – and that the info for yellow has to be in the mother plant…

I’m fairly sure that there are no naturally yellow strains of Rosa rugosa…

and yet there is yellow ‘Agnes’ from Rosa rugosa X ‘Persian Yellow’ and also my yellow F1 hybrid from Rosa rugosa x xanthina.

I’m hoping that my Rosa rugosa x ‘Hazeldean’ will be another example, but it is probably still too small to bloom. Now that David has counted Hazeldean as a triploid, I’m wondering what the likely ploidy will be for this seedling???

Tom

Hi Tom!

Thank you, thats interesting for me, while I have crossed in May 2005 this one and because i am crossing with yellows still, too:

Rosa acicularis nipponensis x Rosa eca

And if the yellow colour should be at least partly inherited, this seedling, which germinated in May last year, is still of interest!

Only one, from 60 seeds, but it is alive.

Greetings!

Arno

Sorry I mean

Rosa acicularis nipponensis x Rosa ecae

Arno,

Is that photo of your Rosa acicularis nipponensis x Rosa ecae? This has never been done before. A remarkable acheivement.

Do you have a recent photo? Does it look more like mama or papa?

Hi Don,

yes, its exactly this seedling.

The plant now is only about 2 inches “small” and its alive.

I will take fotos if the plant grows and is getting leafs this spring, at the moment, there is nothing to see.

Only a lot of prickles.

Greetings,

Arno

Regarding: “Encyclopedia of Rose Sciences”, if it says that its not possible to cross in yellow flower color via pollen – and that the info for yellow has to be in the mother plant… rding: "

Please see my acicularis X R15 crosses:

http://picasaweb.google.com/HAKuska/RosePictures/photo#5091602158299699922

AND

http://picasaweb.google.com/HAKuska/HenrySRoses/photo#5071154485145851058

There are still several more seedlings from that cross that have not yet bloomed.

Also regarding: “Encyclopedia of Rose Sciences”, if it says that its not possible to cross in yellow flower color via pollen " … I wonder where this piece of poor information originally came from??

I saw that, too. The first rose that came to mind was Cassanova, LOL! (Queen Elizabeth x Kordes Perfecta)