1987 ARA Dr. Basye A Probable Amphidiploid of Rosa Rugosa an

A comment about potential copyright infringement has been received, so in order not to create any issues, the scan of this article has been removed.

Dr. Basye states here that Commander Gillette, 77-361 and The Probable Amphidiploid all grew at The Huntington Library and material would be made available for the cost of postage. After reading this in 1987, I went on the hunt for these roses. Only two had been received and were growing in The Study Plot there: The Probable Amphidiploid and “Basye’s Thornless”. The Accession Card File only listed two roses received from Dr. Basye: The Probably Amphidiploid and 77-361. The rose, Basye’s Legacy", IS the rose sent by Dr. Basye as 77-361, which grew at The Huntington. It is from that plant, I collected the cuttings which went on to be christened “Basye’s Legacy”.

Hi Kim,

It appears to me from what Dr Basye reports here in this article (unless I am missing something), that his ‘Probable Amphidiploid’ (aka Basye’s amphidiploid) i.e _Rosa moschata var. abysinnica Crépin × Rosa Rugosa ‘Rubr_a’ was created by him collecting OP seeds from the species cross, and then testing the several resulting OP seedlings’ somatic (leaf tip) ploidy. It looks like he ended up with one single keeper seedling which had a tetraploid somatic chromosome count, which had occurred naturally, very likely according to him due to natural unreduced gametes from the egg and pollen of the same mother (diploid) plant coupling together…to form a tetraploid offspring…i.e. a purely natural chance phenomenon. I cannot seem to find any mention of colchicine (or any other chemical or physical intervention other than collecting OP seeds the usual way one would) in the creation of this seedling later known as ‘Probable Amphidiploid’ in this account.

If this is in fact the correct interpretation of his writings, then consideration might be given to correct comments about this probable amphidiploid which suggest it was created through the use of colchicine to induce doubling, as for example found here and here, to reflect this.

What do you think about this?

Sorry if I have things mixed up here and please let me know if I have !


Seems the case, George. Thanks. Done.

Thanks Kim, and also a big thanks for posting this amazing series of articles written by Dr Basye!

You’re welcome George. They were fun while they lasted!



Description of Basye’s “Probable Amphidiploid” origination is quite identical to that of “Rosa hordesii”.

Just as in later case, one can gave strong doubts about the improbable self fecondation of the rare viable 2n ovules and pollen in a garden with a lot tetraploid roses species, hybrids and industrious natural pollinators.

Hi Pierre,

The reason I posted what I did was just to correct what appeared to be an error on a web database (see above, has since been amended through the course of time) regarding how The Probable Amphidiploid was produced.

If I read Dr Basye’s article correctly, my interpretation of what is written is that the probable amphidiploid was not produced using colchicine treatments as had been suggested somehwere on the web before subsequent correction (I am repeating what I stated further up here)…rather that it was a product of nature, and the work of ?bees / insects in his garden.

…and, YES, of course the resulting tetraploidy of the 'Rosa moschata var. abysinnica Crépin × Rosa Rugosa ‘Rubra’ seedling (= probable amphidiploid) could well have been the result of a pollen donation from some other non-related rose in that garden via random insect visitations if the blooms had not been carefully covered to eliminate such. I have no clue what was done, and will not speculate on this, it would not be correct for me to do so.

I don’t think anyone can doubt that possibility without any definitive proof.

If I was a betting man I would actually not lay any bets on this one !

As I implied in another thread this week, the “Alba-ness” from a seedling from one of the sets of seeds I germinated from Henry several years ago, implies to me that Amphidiploid is likely a descendant of R. moschata, since some core, dominant traits align with this hybrid, R. moschata, R. alba, and R. damascena.

Is this a fact? No, but its a strong probability, and one that I am really enjoying when mixed with Cinnamonae types, which takes their rustic edge off in a pleasant way.

I am also enjoying watching my Basye’s Legacy (probable amphidiploid X commander gillette) seedling grow, it is FINALLY just starting to grow stems after 8-9 months post germination.

It has two tiny stems like a “V” configuration, one has tiny bristles I can just make out, the other is smooth. NO prickers as such so far, which means nothing of course.

Here it is this morning !

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